REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pics

[gymratt30]

Hi , Dont get me wrong, I may have used the word "confirmed" loosely.
I dont have a single thing (yet) to confirm it to be a 100% copo car, I can only say, that Jerry, said the car was pretty much all factory in having the early series engine mounts, (coded), the 3/8 inch fuel line that has never been touched, correct original radiator ,the cowl hole/harness, riginal leaf springs, original transmission, original breather (flat bottom), and numerious other copo specific items,. I have also contacted the original owner who bought the car new, again, guys, im not the expert, and I know how discussions boards go ...... I dont want to start a big arguement here, just wanted to say thanks to all who has given us the balls to actually buy the car.

(again, as I type this , Jerry has NOT given me anything to "prove its a copo" ...he just left here at 5pm today, However, you must admit, the guy does know his stuff, and everything he saw today indicated it was a copo.

[William]

If I were you I would be spending what ever it took to find the OE drive train and paperwork for this car before investing in a restoration. Nobody can "certify" your car as a COPO. The same Garnet red COPO has been on ebay several times in the past year-no paperwork, no OE drivetrain, no sale. Way too easy to clone a COPO.

[supercomp 8.90]

hey what is the date on the picture with the cowl hood on the car?

[Les Quam]

Great thread.

Marlin it takes a lot of courage to come out with the truth about a car rebodied by a well known and well respected guy knowing you are going to get severely bashed or burned at the stake as you say. Well done that kind of integrity isn't found in abundance today.

I am trying to learn more about documenting Camaro's the only two I own have paperwork, living original owners and were well known. So if I understand this a COPO will have its VIN on the trim plate and behind the heater box and on the cowl? Plus on the block? But the VIN contains nothing that indicates what the car is in regard to the factory engine? Thus if all the VINS match then you are comparing them to paperwork which may or may not be authentic??

My rookie understanding is that the 512 block has a VIN on the rear pad in front of the oil filter in a rough area that can't be restamped so if that is true and that VIN matches the other VINS what does that mean? I was also told the other chevy big blocks the non Hi- Po blocks have the rear stamp on a machined pad near the oil filter and can be restamped?

[Jeff H]

No, the VIN stamping along the oil filter flange is a rough cast area, not machined. But you can find a block with no stamping and add one so I would say they can definitely be restamped in that manner. It's not quite the same thing as decking the block and restamping it up front, but it's a way to get a #'s matching motor when the original was long gone. The partial VIN is up on the cowl and behind the heater blower. That can prove the VIN tag matches the body but without paperwork and original drivetrain it doesn't prove too much more.

[Les Quam]

Its rough cast near the oil filter on all Chevy big blocks or just the 512 and 396/375 blocks? I didn't know there were 512 blocks without stampings so they could later be restamped? You would have thought Chevy would have stamped something to denote it was a warranty or parts block? So then to create a bogus COPO you find a unstamped block and restamp the rough area and machine the pad on the front and then restamp that and get some bogus paper work and your in business? Geez that sucks. So absent prior owners and bulletproof docs how do you make sure its a real COPO or not? 3/8 inch fuel lines and specfic motor mount part numbers seems flimsy?

I would think the Yenkos would be easier since the VINs are known and you can check the two VINs on the body for welding???

[rockn69]

I would like to add that Ed Cunneen did this hobby a great service and for a lot of years researching, cataloging and documenting the rarest of the rare in which there are a lot of wannabe owners out there and not enough cars to go around. I think the bashing that goes on in this site is counter productive and bad for this site. I hope Ed enjoys his COPO Chevelle and I don't blame him for getting out from under the microscope.

[JQ]

[ QUOTE ]
Its rough cast near the oil filter on all Chevy big blocks or just the 512 and 396/375 blocks? I didn't know there were 512 blocks without stampings so they could later be restamped? You would have thought Chevy would have stamped something to denote it was a warranty or parts block? So then to create a bogus COPO you find a unstamped block and restamp the rough area and machine the pad on the front and then restamp that and get some bogus paper work and your in business? Geez that sucks. So absent prior owners and bulletproof docs how do you make sure its a real COPO or not? 3/8 inch fuel lines and specfic motor mount part numbers seems flimsy?

I would think the Yenkos would be easier since the VINs are known and you can check the two VINs on the body for welding???

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the known Vin list include the cars that had motor transplants....?

[HiHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi , Dont get me wrong, I may have used the word "confirmed" loosely.
I dont have a single thing (yet) to confirm it to be a 100% copo car, I can only say, that Jerry, said the car was pretty much all factory in having the early series engine mounts, (coded), the 3/8 inch fuel line that has never been touched, correct original radiator ,the cowl hole/harness, riginal leaf springs, original transmission, original breather (flat bottom), and numerious other copo specific items,. I have also contacted the original owner who bought the car new, again, guys, im not the expert, and I know how discussions boards go ...... I dont want to start a big arguement here, just wanted to say thanks to all who has given us the balls to actually buy the car.

(again, as I type this , Jerry has NOT given me anything to "prove its a copo" ...he just left here at 5pm today, However, you must admit, the guy does know his stuff, and everything he saw today indicated it was a copo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting situation, the car may be a COPO but without documentation or the original block ..., guess you can have the original owner sign an affidavit stating it is a COPO and the hole in the firewall was always there from birth.

[Stefano]

A few comments;

First and foremost, anyone can be a victim of Fraud, no matter how much you know about a particular car, anyone!

The rough casting by the oil filter on any Big Block can be accurately reproduced. (same as the rough casting on the back of a 428CJ etc) This is not new! It has been done for more than two decades, on many cars to include COPOs and Yenkos.

That particular VIN/location is very difficult to "Judge" or "determine" while it is in the car. Not impossible, just difficult.

Properly done frauds/fakes/rebodies "can" be virtually undetectable, in fully restored states.

Original, untouched and unrestored cars are much more difficult to fake. Possible, but much more difficult.

I certainly am not infallible and have made my fair share of mistakes. I have debated COPO/Yenko issues with every "ëxpert" mentioned in this thread and ALL have made mistakes.

In fact: I can't think of any one particular expert who I have dealt with over the past decades, whether is has involved a Ferrari, Shelby, Pontiac, Shelby, COPO/Yenko, etc., who has never made a mistake.

Since this thread is in regards to COPO Camaros, I'll stick to that issue.

Paperwork such as a buildsheet, is very rare in a 1969 Camaro, built at the Norwood Plant. I can confidently state that more than 90% of all Norwood Camaros do not have a build sheet with them today!

Companies have been reproducing protecto-plates using Vintage Blank books, vintage tape, vintage Blanks and stamped with Vintage Machines. You cannot tell the difference on an "accurate" reproduction.

Note: There are companies which will accurately reproduce VIN tags for GM, Ford and Chrysler Cars.

It is very difficult to prove anything 100%. What most Pro's do is try to Prove beyond a reasonable doubt to themselves and elliminate any situation wherein the car can't be something.

There are approx 100 specific item to look for Just on a COPO Camaro.

To use a particular car as an example and to infer that because it doesn't have factory paperwork or an original drivetrain that all such cars are not worth much, just doesn't hold water with me. Maybe it might have something to do with the quality of the resto/price etc?

I have bought sold, inspected and certified more than a few COPO Camaros and can say that most do not have all their original drive trains.

Sounds like you have indeed found an original COPO Camaro and if Jerry MacNeish provides a certificate as such, along with the other info you have uncovered and that which may still be uncovered, that you indeed have a Rare car with Collector/enthusiasts value.

ps I have seen several knowledgeable people look at the same parts, numbers and stampings and come up with varying opinions.

Congrats on locating and identifying another potentail piece of the COPO Camaro puzzle