#CE L88 427BBC long block value

[TimG]

NCRS does not treat CE blocks any different than any block. The casting number must be correct for the year of the car and the casting date must be before the build date of the car to avoid a point deduction, period. If you have a '67 big block Corvette, the casting number needs to be 3904351. A 512 block would receive a 350 point deduction if it had CE stamped on it or if it had JE (435 horse L71 motor). They don't care if the motor was replaced by GM under warranty two years after the sale of the car or not. If you had a warranty motor that was replaced in a '67 Corvette six months after it was purchased and the block carried the 3904351 part number, but the casting date was three months after the build date, you receive a 175 point deduction. There is no special treatment for a CE block or a block with no stamping at all.
It's a very simple and fair set up. I'd be upset if some guy showed up with a '69 Corvette with a block dated one year after the build date of the car (CE block) and he received the same lack of deduction as my original engine '69 Corvette.

[L34Pace]

I might be wrong but under the current judging standards would a warrany CE block not be considered second tier to a correctly dated restoration block with a non conforming block pad? I don't think anyone is advocating the CE should be excluded from conventional judging standards as it is obviously a non original component. We can leave that can of worms to the block restamping industry. What would be the detrimental impact of embracing the reality of the CE block and incorporating its specific characteristics into judging standards? I believe it would bring some nice examples to the show field. Under current conditions why waste the time and energy?

[TimG]

That's a good point (about bringing out CE blocks that would receive nearly a 600 point deduction). A CE block would only receive the points for the broach being present if everything else was too late for the car. With a 575 point decutcion, a car could, at best receive a Second Flight .
That would be a chore for those that revise the judging manual. I don't know how they'd reward a documented CE block, or if true documentation of one is possible.
I'd love to see a true CE block car show up, if nice car, I'd like to see it do well in judging.

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
That's a good point (about bringing out CE blocks that would receive nearly a 600 point deduction). A CE block would only receive the points for the broach being present if everything else was too late for the car. With a 575 point decutcion, a car could, at best receive a Second Flight .

[/ QUOTE ] This is exactly the point why guys with legitimate CE cars pull them out and restamp them. Its not just the ncrs,people will do whatever gets them the most points at a national show. Certainly if someone starts out with a motor that wont allow them to top flight ,thats the first thing they will address .

[rpoz11]

[ QUOTE ]
The casting number must be correct for the year of the car and the casting date must be before the build date of the car to avoid a point deduction, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmmm....
Hhmmmm!

As I am reading this, you are Specifically pointing out (NCRS) Judging only.
A 351 block in a 67 Vette must have a preceding build/casted date repalcement CE Block.
Now, Why is this original block being replaced by a previously assembled engine?
OK, maybe an engine failure prior to shipment, maybe.
Seems logical.
However, I still stand to Chuck's pointe that a latter date code should be valid, and why not???!!!!!!
Does the dealer actually look for a previously date coded replacement block back in 67?
NO!
They will replace it with the appropriate GM authorized unit, and one that is available to either be shipped for installation at the Chevrolet dealer, or with the appropriate unit, either at that dealership, or one from a local dealership in the vicinity.
Tell me, how many of these CE blocks did they have to choose from back in 1967?

I find it hard to believe that a natural order of preselection occurred back then, but maybe there were shortblocks sitting ready to be used.
But how available was that 351 Block in, for example, in Flagstaff, Arizona...when the engine let go?
Did the Chevrolet dealer or division hunt down a previously dated 351 CE L88 specifically for this car?
How many 351 CE L88s were in that vicinity?

I am suggesting only that the following CE stamped and coded L88 was assembled as a warranty replacement or as an over the counter unit for sale to the public.

[427king]

Add to that point that there were NO CE 3904351 engines and you really have a dilemma. They didnt start using the CE stamping until 68. 66 and 67 replacement factory motors were blank pad stamps.

[TimG]

Bottom line, like it or not, is that the engine casing in a car presented for judging must carry the correct casting for the year and application of the car. The casting date must be before the assembly date of the car. As I've said, they don't care if CE is on the pad or not. If NCRS wanted to provide some point break for a CE block with some dealer paperwork to verify its existence, that's fine. But right now, they don't. This is the judging system for all components of a Corvette from the jack to the windshield. The '68 L89 that Charley and I owned had a passenger side window that was two months after the build date of the car. The power window mechanism scratched the window and it was replaced under warranty. The window was penalized when I presented the car for Flight judging. No way should that have been allowed to judge without penalty, just like a replacement block. I don't believe that NCRS ever will allow anything close to full points for a CE block placed in a car that has the incorrect casting date and number. It's not Typical Factory Production (TFP). That's the guide. It's not a perfect system, but it is a good system that I like.

[rpoz11]

TimG wrote:
"the engine casing in a car presented for judging must carry the correct casting for the year and application of the car. The casting date must be before the assembly date of the car. As I've said, they don't care if CE is on the pad or not. If NCRS wanted to provide some point break for a CE block with some dealer paperwork to verify its existence, that's fine. But right now, they don't. This is the judging system for all components of a Corvette"

I STILL find it hard to believe that a natural order of preselection occurred back then!

And once again, you are basing this solely on NCRS judging, ONLY!
In the real time of what occured back in the day, this process should not match your judging approach!
Looks to me as if you need your NCRS boys to rethink this out.

I still think this goes back to what Chuck suggested:
That , for example, in 1969, a 512 Block was made throughout the Chevroelt run, then it is feasable to locate such a Block with this casting # and date code of casting around a particular car's build.
Pick any 512 Block casted prior to your build date, whether the MN code existed or an IT existed, then you are saying it's correct.

[ANDY M]

May I ask a question here for the purpose of clarification?
What would be the difference between an L72 long block and an L88 if both are stamped CE? Since we are talking about a long block, I assume that it is an assembled unit, 512 casting, and unless you break it down, no way to indentify the rotating asembly numbers. If you put 840 heads on it, would it then become an L72? The CE stamped motor in my Camaro has 990 heads on it. Does that make it an L88?
I have never been involved in judging anything, so I'm just curious.

[nuch_ss396]

Andy,

As you know, the L-88 had unique high domed pistons ( 12:1 I believe ),
I don't think those pistons would work with
the standard '840 heads unless we are talking early L-88.
I thought early L-88's used a differernt block than the
'512. I need to re-read this thread! I think I turned
left while it went to the right.