Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please

[mrrec]

To many people, including most NCRS folks (they seem to almost encourage restamps), numbers matching means just that: the casting dates, stamped codes, etc. match the VIN and assy dates that are appropriate for the car VIN, assy date and/or docs - restamp/altered part or not.

I agree that some other term such as "ORIGINAL" numbers matching or "born with" is necessary to distinguish between the above definition and the real thing. I believe it is unfortunate that some use the term "numbers matching" to imply that the components are original to the car. Look how many fake Z28s and 435hp Vettes are numbers matching!!

I had a major Corvette parts seller tell me that he altered casting dates frequently and justified it by saying that since you can't tell, what's the problem? The problem is, it's deception. Plain and simple.

Dave

[Jeff H]

To me numbers matching means the original engine and trans with the partial VIN stamped from the factory. I've alwyas thought it to mean that for over 25 years. The Corvette guys kind of messed up that definition when they started restamping things for judging purposes. Since the engine and transmission are the only components with the actual VIN stamped in them, they are the main parts where the numbers match. Now if you have the POP then your rear end can also match the code and date from the POP but it still won't have the VIN stamped in it. Most of the deceiving ads out there use "number's matching" because they know people will think it's the original motor and trans. They should be using "number's correct", "factory correct", "date coded block" and also clearly state if the VIN does not match.

[Rick H]

Everyone keeps blaming the Corvette guys when in reality it happens in ALL makes and models. Think of the Mopar guys who buy a hulk of a Hemi without drivetrain but it has the fender tag. In a few months, VIOLA, instance numbers matching car. So to point fingers at one group is ridiculous. That's not the reason I asked the question.

I can agree with the VIN stamped block and tranny but when it comes to other parts such as heads, exhaust manifolds, intakes, carbs, etc.. those without a VIN stamped into it, what does numbers matching mean?

There are some who believe that every part must be born with original to be considered numbers matching. I totally disagree.

I find the subject interesting and would like to hear more but please do not point fingers.

Thanks
Rick H.

[nuch_ss396]

If numbers matching means, or represents "born with...", why
do the CE blocks command so much attention and/or such high
prices. We've seen it over and over again.

I used to believe that numbers matching meant "born with" but
my feelings are different these days. When you find a nice
car to restore, but the original drivetrain is missing, you
are left with the proposition of assembling the correctly
dated, and if lucky - coded, components. Once done, you
have a numbers matching car. Just not the original components
the car came from the factory with.

Now the obvious observation: We all remember lots of
performance cars from our respective pasts and how many
of those cars survived with their original engines and/or
transmissions through the 1970's. Damn near every car I
remember had a transplanted block. Yet today, so many of
our cars are "numbers matching". I live in a glass house,
so I'm not throwing anything hard here.

I myself, in the quest to restore my grandfathers SS Camaro
back to original was forced to find numbers matching components,
but they are not, and can never be, the "born with" parts.

Is my car numbers matching? I believe it is. Is it original?
NO! How many actually are.

[69hurstSC]

this is not as complicated as it seems. #'s matching (IMO)is simply the drivetrain (engine, trans, rearend) that the particular vehicle rolled off the assembly line with. if you grenaded the motor and replaced it with a factory correct replacement block, you no longer have matching #'s. heads, water pumps, bumpers, mirrors, to me this is all accecptable to replace.
restamping = NON #'s matching
there are a few particular grey areas that must be discussed. lets take a 69 Yenko Novas for example. these cars were born as SS 396 cars and of course those were pulled for 427's. is this still a #'s matching car? another example would be the 69 Hurst Olds. they were converted to 455's. what is everyones opinion of a car that is still dealership new, but converted somehow before the 1st original buyer purchases that car?

[Keith Tedford]

Too many people play with words to make you assume things that probably are not true. The simple question is: "Is this engine original to the car?" Nothing vague about that. When money is involved, beware.

[LS6 RAT]

Rick,

Your "numbers matching" inquiry is tough to answer easily. My opinion is that there are only 3 items that can be considered numbers matching. This assumes that what we are "matching" is the VIN plate designation to the cylinder case, transmission case and frame/unibody that contains the VIN or a partial derivative of it.
Another argument can be said, about the Protect-0-plate metal card that contains the assembly stampings, and that the engine, transmission and rear axle can all be "matched" to the POP.
Beyond this, I would say all other components could be properly dated for the build of the vehicle, or contain the proper casting numbers associated with the inventory of parts used to build this specific vehicle and its options.

[Late BrakeU2]

Semantics and date coded parts aside,a car is only original once.CE blocks get about the same respect as cars without paperwork it seems.What about the member with the 67Z for sale who wanted some opinions on his motors originality? It's been pretty much validated on here by some of the foremost authorities as the one it came down the line with,and still there are a few conspiracy theorists.

[deuce-less]

perhaps some of us miss the best part of the hobby being caught up in the "numbers game"...

are we hesitant to even drive and enjoy our precious investment grade muscle cars??

what if we lose the original born with block because of an over-rev or missed shift?

i guess then we have to keep a non-numbers block in the car to drive and keep the born with block stored away for safe keeping...

or maybe a camaro we can flog without remorse when we feel the need and our original born with drive train car safe at home in its environmentally stable storage facility

there will be a day when we all wish we had spent a little more time with the pedal down and a little less time crawling under cars with a flash light checking numbers..


jmo

[Zedder]

Rick is right...it's not the Corvette guys fault...their just the first (and it seems the only ones) who were prepared to accept the fact that WE (as in car enthusiasts) created this situation by apply a much greater value to "matching numbers" cars. Naturally, those seeking to get greater value for their cars and, in some cases, those who simply didn't want to have their car looked down upon because the original motor was trashed like so many were back in the day, started "restoring the motor numbers just like any other part of the car. Originally, the Corvette guys (and I was one of them at the time - mid 90's) were on a mission to uncover any deception during the judging process and they were pretty succesful. However, the restampers got better and soon it was nearly impossible for even the most seasoned judge to call a restamped block. So, rather than fight something that they couldn't stop, they decided to accept the current state of the hobby and "allow" restamps for judging. The sad part of this is that the actual stamping on the engine block carries such little weight, that it really doesn't have a huge impact on the car's score.

Those struggling with the change in terminology need to just accept that this is where the hobby has come to, whether you like it or not, you or I won't change it! Kinda like the whole "clone" or "re-creation" thing. In the '70's when I was a teen, we put SS hoods and emblems on any plain Jane Camaro or Chevelle we bought - everyone did! We openly called them "fake SS's" and no one thought anything about it since we really didn't know how to tell a real car from a fake anyway I still hate the "clone" term, but the reality is that it takes some of the deception out of building a fake and maybe it's better to at least call a spade a spade and accept that it happens.

I'm not ready to restamp a motor personally yet, but I would consider buying a car with a restamped motor if it was disclosed and well done. Frankly, after the recent threads here and on Team Camaro regarding this, I think the Corvette guys are smarter than we give them credit for...you seldom see a restamp or motor bashing thread on the Corvette boards any more. Yesterday, I decided that I will never "guarantee" another motor etc. to be original becuase it's just not worth the BS that follows as you try and "prove" it to people that have no interest in buying a the car in the first place! Look at the BS that Jerry MacNeish is having piled on him for "certifying" the Green Z at Legendary...the comments being thrown at him are simply not fair and it sickens me to see how negative the hobby has become.