69 Z28 w/ P-O-P on Ebay

[Jonesy]

I has been in my database for about 5 years
This was the info I had on it:

1 = Chevrolet
2 = Camaro
4 = 8-cylinder engine
37 = coupe body
9 = 1969 model year
L = Los Angeles, CA assembly plant (Van Nuys)
516692 = vehicle serial number sequence

Decode for body number: 223540

01C = Built the Third week of January.
69-12437 = Coupe.
VN = Built in Van Nuys California.
727 = Standard Ivory/Black Bucket Seats.
65-65 = Car Color is Olympic Gold
M537 = internal plant scheduling code.

[Lynn]

Nick:

No one accused you of being dishonest. Hope you understand that. The closest thing I saw to an accusation was the statement made by one poster saying it was unclear whether you or a previous owner changed items on the car.

You can track the title history in a situation like this. While title information is normally confidential, you can make a request under certain circumstances.

In Oklahoma you can obtain title history of a vehicle "For use in connection with any civil, criminal, administrative or arbitral proceeding in any federal, state or local court or agency or before any self-regulatory body, including the service of process, investigation in anticipation of litigation..." The Texas law has a paragraph with the identical wording, so I am guessing both states passed legislation with wording "suggessted" by the Federal privacy laws. Most other states will be the same, or at least similar. I have just recently obtained title histories on several questionable cars in Oklahoma (which takes only a day or two) and am waiting on the history on one car from Texas (which will take 6 to 8 weeks).

Assuming you wish investigate the possibility of fraud in anticipation of litigation, you can start with New Jersey. The title history there will show the previous out of state owner, and you can then back track to that state (presumably Minn., but could have changed hands a couple of other times - who knows).

In investigating actual fraud, I have found most of the previous owners are more than happy to discuss the particulars of the car, and are appalled to find someone has used "their" car (these cars are like kids in a way - even when they are gone, we think of them as "ours") to commit fraud. You would be surprised what you can find out.

Obviously one of those previous owners swapped out the motor, and someone restamped the current motor.

And yes, as you may have guessed, I am an attorney. While I don't beleive in suing everyone who looks cross-eyed at you, I honestly beleive the fraud problem will only subside when the risk outweighs the benefit. The risk in this case is the risk of being sued. I normally don't handle litigation. I practice mainly in the area of Estate Planning. I am however, investigating a case right now that involves a swapped trim tag, which I consider more serious than a restamped engine. Once the necessary evidence is gathered, witnesses lined up etc, I will have no reservation hitting the offending party with a lawsuit. My client is quite anxious on this one. Can't share any more details for fear of hindering my current investigation, but once this one is in the books, you can bet I will share all the details, naming names, so that others can use the info to fight this kind of fraud.

Good luck on your car, both on the sale, and finding out whether it was misrepresented, and, if so, by whom. It is a very nice looking car, and frankly the gold color is kind of refreshing.

Lynn

[Blad Boys Cars]

I appreciate everyones feedback.

Thank you

[Hotrodpaul]

Overall, I think the car looks nice, I started the thread because the engine stamping looked suspect. It seems almost every 69 Z-28 I see on Ebay has issues from swapped trim tags, repo trim tags, restamped blocks, forged P-O-P's, and the list goes on and on. Many of the sellers are very honest people who bought the cars from dishonest sellers who knew about the cars history and "restoration" Because of the rising value of 69 Z-28's, you will see more of this. My recommendation to anyone entering the hobby would be to purchase and read as many reference books as possible and frequent this website and ask as many questions as you can BEFORE you lay down the cash for a car.

To the seller, it is difficult to document a Van Nuys built Z-28 since there are no X Codes on the trim tag. What I would recommend to document the car would be do the folllowing:

1) Talk to the previous owners and try to find the original owner. A title search may help but you may have to follow the rope as they say. That is how I found the original owner of my 69 SS L-78.

2) Any other documentation would be great to have. The original P-O-P would document the Engine, Trans assy date, Rear axle assy date and ratio, steering and radio options, etc. These can be reproduced and they look very good. Also LA built cars usually had build sheets placed on top of the gas tank before the tank was installed, and may have survived. If the tank has not been removed, it may still be there. There may be additional build sheets under the carpet, in the seat springs, etc. Norwood built cars very rarely come with build sheets.

3) Check the mechanicals of the car. The rear leaf springs should have 4 leafs although some high optioned cars may have 5 leafs. Take close up photos of all the stampings (Rear, Tranny, Engine) and post them on this site. Many experts here will check them out for you. For an original 4.10 ratio, the axle code will be BV as this should be a 12 bolt (12 bolts holding the cover and ring gear). This will also show on the P-O-P.
The tach should have an 8000 rpm scale with a 6000 rpm redline. Some older Z's have been documented with 7000 RPM scale tachs. The car will have a single 3/8" fuel line. Check to see if it is original, old looking, or has it been replaced? There will also be a 2" X 4" sized plate welded on the drivers side frame rail behind the rear tire for an attachment point for the dual exhaust hanger. All SS and Z-28 cars had these. There may have been a few LM-1 and other dual exhaust small blocks built with this hanger as well.

4) Check for other original Z-28 parts such as front disc brakes, 15 X 7" Rally Wheels date coded that match the car, US stamped master cylinder, 9204 Brake Booster, Harrison Radiator, proportioning valve located on frame rail under drivers seat, rear bumper guards, etc.

I you have any other questions on documenting your Z, give me a call at 713-306-1892. Thanks, and good luck.

Paul

[rsatz28]

3)The tach should have an 8000 rpm scale with a 6000 rpm redline. Some older Z's have been documented with 7000 RPM scale tachs.
4) proportioning valve located on frame rail under drivers seat
Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what has been said on this thread about checking for certain items. I will disagree with a couple of items that were mentioned.

According to Jerry MacNeish's book, there have been documented Z-28's w/o a tach. I have an X77 car that does not have a tach. In addition I have a Nov 68 built car with the propotioning valve attached to the booster/master cylinder. There are several pictures in his book showing the valve attached to the booster/master cylinder.

As Paul said buy a couple of books and ask questions.

[JRSully]

If you look at the stamp pad, you can obviously see the horizontal (sideways) decking machine marks from a modern decking machine kind of "swirly"