Pricing / values

[Steve Shauger]

Survivor vehicle collectability is virtually identical to artwork, guns, coins, stamps, pottery etc....

Desirability in this case means performance oriented cars, not a grocery getter or low performance cars with one-off options(I love those) next is Condition, History, Documentation/provenance and Awards/ verification.

Lets not mistake cars that survived, to those true well preserved survivor cars. Mileage is meaningless if a car has been either restored or a large amount of original components are missing.

There has always been a strong niche market, and the right car with all the above elements ...will set records. I know of and have certified a few..

[napa68]

This is a great discussion. I have nothing to contribute at this point, but find this discussion from the contributors very informative........thank you!

Tim

[60sStuff]

Originally Posted by Stefano

From my perspective, the appreciation for original and unrestored cars of many makes from exotics, to Corvettes, muscle cars and more is increasing.

However, the vast majority of collectors still prefer a glistening piece of over restored jewelry to patina.

Exceptional Survivor type examples tend to demand more than their equivalent restored examples, in my opinion.

Exactly, I agree with the above statements.

I’ve been attracted for decades to Anything Factory Original (hopefully in decent or better condition) that was built by the Original manufacturer.
This could be Automobiles, Bicycles, Guns and Toys.

I know this saying “It’s only Original once” gets a lot of use, but so true.

Years ago when I would take a muscle car and/or one of my Schwinn Stingrays to a show, there would be a guy or two that would come up to me and say, you should have that painted ..... thanks but please go away.

Things have changed.
Now, those Factory Original items are being appreciated and respected for their History and how they were actually assembled with (paint runs, door gaps, overspray, etc.), acceptable flaws.

Setting a price, that’s difficult.

I love the Unrestored / Survivors of anything old and enjoy seeing them here on this great forum.

Chris

[EZ Nova]

Originally Posted by tom406

I agree with Stefano-I think the market for survivors has come around, and has finally grown enough to push their value a bit beyond the best restored cars, but the market for restored cars is bigger and the two sets of buyers don't overlap as much as some would think. I still think the best examples of each still end up in the same basic neighborhood, if you're just trying to get an idea of what it might cost to play in that game.

I agree with Stefano on you on his comments. BUT not sure about the 2 sets of buyers?

I the the groups of buyers that can afford the BEST OF THE BEST restored to 100% cars, can also afford the survivors and would look for them as well mostly because it comes down to the fact there just isn't that many survivors out there? You can always look for and buy a restored example of a car, say 1970 Boss 429. But now go look for a survivor 1970 Boss 429, there just isn't that many. So the UBER rich don't care. Like my late friend who just passed told me, "IF I WANT, AND WANT IT BAD ENOUGH, NO ONE WILL OUT SPEND ME I JUST DON'T CARE". Now those are the types that will drive the survivor's market because just about anyone can go and buy $150,000 restored car if there serious. But when the guy who want what not too many has or can have, that's what drives the $$$ and that's what I think your seeing with the survivors market now.

R.I.P. Ken

[njsteve]

Ballpark figure... on a car that is in 99.9% perfect, original condition and I'm talking Vintage Time Capsule Award kind of condition - I would take the value of a 1,000 point show car that was restored by an expert in their field, to perfect conditon...and then double that. That is the ballpark value of an untouched car.

You are talking about a moment of captured time; a dinosaur frozen in a chunk of amber; a piece of history; an example of original artwork painted by the master's hand himself, etc., Like a Stratavarius violin that is in its original condition.

The people that appreciate these type of cars are ones who are looking for a frozen moment in time, one that will always be that age, forever. And there are precious few examples of these cars that are ever brought to light.

If you try to refinish it, or make it "better," or more perfect-er according to your perceived ideal of what it once was according to your memory, you are diminishing the value instead of increasing it.

[njsteve]

I would add this: these type of "dinosaur in amber" cars really are a type of prison. And if you take one on, you are basically going to be the warden of that prison for a set amount of time until you see fit to parole it to the next warden.

I truly enjoyed my time with Enrico's 73 SD-455, but once he passed on, I felt it was time to release it to the next "warden" so that person could oversee the car during its next consecutive prison sentence. ;-)

[daleone3]

Great thread, all comes down to personal preference. Do you want the shiniest, the fastest or the as built car? As the owner of a 76 Formula with now 8400 original miles, I take more pride in being the caretaker than I would if it has been restored or fluffed at some point in its life. I like the minor imperfections from the factory, the quirky clock that works sometimes and the somewhat shiny but original paint job that was applied 45 years ago. In terms of value, who knows. Trends come and go but to me there will always be someone out there ready to take on the role of "warden" or "caretaker" for this when I am done and hopefully be one of my daughters.

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

I think it’s easy to get away from the original topic at hand too. Is it possible to have a GUIDE to Pricing for Survivor Cars like Restored cars?

I personally don’t think so as I’ve said, I put no faith in the current guides for restored cars so Survivors would be even more difficult. Less comparable examples to even guess.

[Tidmack]

Originally Posted by MYSTERYCHEVELLE

I think it’s easy to get away from the original topic at hand too. Is it possible to have a GUIDE to Pricing for Survivor Cars like Restored cars?

I personally don’t think so as I’ve said, I put no faith in the current guides for restored cars so Survivors would be even more difficult. Less comparable examples to even guess.

I was just talking with a buddy about this topic and insurance came up. He has several under 1,000 mile survivors, and I have a couple that I'd never restore, although some would argue they should be. What if one of the cars is hit at a show or there's an accident in storage? How do we account for diminished value once there's been paintwork done on a vehicle? I've spoken to Hagerty about this, most recently about a year and a half ago when I had several other survivors. They had no answer for me, other than allowing the shop of my choice to make the repair. But, just having to make a repair could lower the value tens of thousands of dollars (or more!) with some cars. I'd like to see some actuaries start crunching some numbers to offer some other insurance options for survivors.

Anyone have some insight with any companies that are already treating survivors differently?

Jeff Tiedke

[tom406]

A friend had that situation happen a few years ago when an original paint 427 Galaxie rubbed against the ceiling of a transporter for 2500 miles.

It was a difficult argument to make then, but is somewhat easier now, with the greater visibility of sales of survivors, barn finds, etc.

In the end, you would have to file a diminished-value type of claim, and then create an argument (hopefully with persuasive sales data) that the vehicle's status from unrestored original to partially restored car has intrinsically made it lose value. And you often have to convince insurance reps or laypeople who won't grasp that idea, especially since it may look "better" to them with fresh paint or newly chromed bumpers.