Wrecked 1970 TA on ebay

[SuperNovaSS]

$2500 a quarter? $2000 a fender? Really? Why would an engine rebuild be so much? Even with a block that needs 8 sleeves it should be cheaper. I whould worry about head corrosion more than block corrosion. I'm not saying it would be cheap, but those prices seem a bit on the outrageous side.


Jason

[nova7579]

At the Trans Am Nationals last year a used rust free original front fender for this car was $1800.

Brian

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
$2500 a quarter? $2000 a fender? Really? Why would an engine rebuild be so much? Even with a block that needs 8 sleeves it should be cheaper. I whould worry about head corrosion more than block corrosion. I'm not saying it would be cheap, but those prices seem a bit on the outrageous side.


Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

1) It's a Pontiac, not a Chevrolet. Engine parts cost a ton more than a small block or big block Chevy.

2) If you want the correct parts for a 70-72 Firebird you will pay dearly for them. Nothing interchanges with the same era Camaros despite the fact that most venders falsely describe them as fitting both models.
I've seem major allegedly reputable venders selling 70-73 Camaro and Firebird rear quarters with the same part number and 70-81 Camaro and Firebird door skins with the same part number even though the two cars have completely different body lines.

3) I have been lucky with my project. The only NOS body parts it needed were the driver's door skin, the lower front spoiler and the tail light panel. I lucked into an NOS door skin on ebay that the guy misdescribed as a later door skin. I found out when I had him email me back the door handle opening measurements. I think I picked it up for $300...and it was local, too! It was an absolute steal because the early style "long door handle" door skins never show up for sale since they were only offered as a service part from 1970 to 1972. The same thing happened with the front spoiler and the rear fiberglas tail light panel - misdescribed and bought reasonably cheaply!

4) Yeah, you could throw on a couple of 73 to 81 fenders and hood on the car and 95% of the people out there won't know the difference. You could also buy some repro quarters for $150 too, and repro doorskins that have the wrong later model door handle openings. You could bolt up a later model radiator support that has those easily spotted 73-81 front fender bracket indents instead of the unobtainable flat top 1970-72 support (another $2000+ piece) - no one will really notice.

You could cut a lot of corners with the bad repro stuff out there and maybe do the car for a whole bunch less but it won't be correct.

It's the same thing with First Gen Camaros, and even Mopars. You can restore a Copo to look presentable to 95% of the population but it won't be correct. That is the difference between the $100,000 Copo (with the Ford "CAUTION FAN" sticker on the shroud) and the $400,000 Copo (without the aforementioned sticker). Or the $125,000 Hemicuda (with the brand new Mopar Performance crate motor) and the $500,000 Hemicuda (with it's born-with block). It's all in the process, the parts, and the execution.

A correct restoration means different things to different people. I prefer to do my cars to a certain level of insanity and try not to deviate from that self-imposed, financially ludacris, standard. On my T/A I am trying to refurbish and reinstall as many of the original components that were on this exact car back in 1972 as I can. (which is why I am just about broke now )

[SuperNovaSS]

I understand your point Steve. What parts on this car are different from a standard Firebird or Formula? Couldn't a guy find a dry 70 Firebird and use many of the parts off of it? Are Trans-Am parts that specific? I know the fenders have the cut outs but couldn't they be grafted from the original fenders? Is the core support different between a Trans-Am and standard Firebird? What about the quarters? Dash? It seems like a guy could find a nice original 70 Firebird and have most of the parts he needed since the Trans-Am specific stuff is there. Unfortunately, because of this Matt may be right. It could be a rebody waiting to happen. It just seems to me that door skins are not necessary if you can find clean doors, etc.


Jason

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your point Steve. What parts on this car are different from a standard Firebird or Formula? Couldn't a guy find a dry 70 Firebird and use many of the parts off of it? Are Trans-Am parts that specific? I know the fenders have the cut outs but couldn't they be grafted from the original fenders? Is the core support different between a Trans-Am and standard Firebird? What about the quarters? Dash? It seems like a guy could find a nice original 70 Firebird and have most of the parts he needed since the Trans-Am specific stuff is there. Unfortunately, because of this Matt may be right. It could be a rebody waiting to happen. It just seems to me that door skins are not necessary if you can find clean doors, etc.


Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yes a lot of parts are interchangable with a regular 70-72 Firebird but it's really hard to find a rust free example as a donor car. For example, the flat top radiator supports rusted from the battery being bolted to them and an overall poor design. The doors were unique so you have to find a 70-72 car with rust free doors which are really rare. The early second gen Firebirds and Camaros had a serious rust problem with the lower rear frame rails and it's really hard to find a car that does not have that problem, too. The dash pads are the same up to about 1975 so you have a larger hunting area there but they all cracked and warped, and it's really hard to find a nice unmolested one with the radio hole intact. These pads were one gigantic piece of vinyl that encompassed the entire front dash area from the windshield to the knee bolster area. Unfortunately the area where the radio goes was just another piece of unrepairable plastic and vinyl that everyone hacked out with a saw to install that high fidelity Kraco AM/FM/CB stereo back then.

[SuperNovaSS]

Hmmmm, maybe I should start parting them out out here.


Jason

[1969z280]

Steve:

Could you post a couple of pictures of the 1970 flat top radiator support and fender construction. Or point towards them. With all of this talk I've started to look at my 1970 T/A with a little more concern. Thanks, Ed

[njsteve]

Sorry, I forgot to include the link to that trashed white 70 T/A. Here it is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pontiac-T...A1%7C240%3A1318

Here is a photo of a 1970 to 1972 flat top radiator support. (The four white spots are pieces of masking tape to protect the paint during adjustment):



Here is a photo of the 73 and up support. Note how the 73 and up T/As and Formulas have the large steel fender to radiator support braces required for new 5mph crash worthiness standards that started in 1973. This required a new radiator support that had two large deep channels in the top of the rad support to hold the two steel bars. Also the tops of the inner fender flanges have a elevated flange with two bolt holes to mount the steel bars too, as noted by the red arrows. This was also the replacement style radiator support sold by GM after 1973.




And note how the drivers side fender on the trashy white 70 T/A that is listed as "95% all original" has the 73 and up elevated mounting points making it a later replacement fender and not the original as he says it is:



Compare the trashy white fender to this original 1970 to 1972 fender. It is flat area with no bolt holes and a flat top radiator support.

[1969z280]

Steve:

Thank you very much for posting the pictures. It's a great tutorial. Ed

[njsteve]

Here's some more quality photos of that "95% original" white T/A...

Just a little surface rust here. I guess the wind took the spoiler corner off:



Needs a little tail panel work...actually it needs a tail panel - there's nothing remaining:



Here's the "95% original" aftermarket Holley spreadbore carb:



And the pies de resistance, the cowl tag that has nothing to rivet to:



On the plus side it does appear to have the $1500 to $2000 set of JW coded 15" Rally wheels with the 14" centers - a unique wheel that was used from 1970 to 1972 on T/A's and Formulas.