Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro

Stuart Adams · #1 01-21-2009, 11:54 PM

The cars are probably saying " just drive me, hard or soft, keep me maintained, polish me once in a while, show me off sometimes, and take me to see my other car likes once in a while, but these humans with their egos and greed just take all of the fun out of it."

showyourauto · #2 01-22-2009, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The cars are probably saying " just drive me, hard or soft, keep me maintained, polish me once in a while, show me off sometimes, and take me to see my other car likes once in a while, but these humans with their egos and greed just take all of the fun out of it."

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LMAO!

Verne_Frantz · #3 01-22-2009, 06:46 AM

I happen to believe that NCRS IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the state of the art regarding restamped engines. Their judging guidelines require a block to "appear" original for full credit. Full credit means a "top" award, and accordingly an increased value of the car. There's a BIG difference between an original car and one that "appears" original.
This practice started with Corvettes; not Camaros, Chevelles, COPOs, Impalas, Fords, Mopars or any other car. It would have happened sooner or later of course for other marques, but it was the Corvette "hobby" that spawned it.

Let's have a national judging competition for fake Mona Lisas. Call in all the art experts and have them judge everyone's "reproductions". If nothing can be observed that is any different than the original, then they all get a perfect score, are deserving of the same credit as the original and are worth a LOT more money. Afterall, they've been signed off to be as (or as good as) an original. (what's the difference in that judging venue?)

And that's the WHOLE problem. There is NO difference between a clone that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award and an original car that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award!. Both earned the same points.......the same award......the same stature......and the same increased value......

Verne

**Steve Shauger** · #4 01-22-2009, 07:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I happen to believe that NCRS IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the state of the art regarding restamped engines. Their judging guidelines require a block to "appear" original for full credit. Full credit means a "top" award, and accordingly an increased value of the car. There's a BIG difference between an original car and one that "appears" original.
This practice started with Corvettes; not Camaros, Chevelles, COPOs, Impalas, Fords, Mopars or any other car. It would have happened sooner or later of course for other marques, but it was the Corvette "hobby" that spawned it.

Let's have a national judging competition for fake Mona Lisas. Call in all the art experts and have them judge everyone's "reproductions". If nothing can be observed that is any different than the original, then they all get a perfect score, are deserving of the same credit as the original and are worth a LOT more money. Afterall, they've been signed off to be as (or as good as) an original. (what's the difference in that judging venue?)

And that's the WHOLE problem. There is NO difference between a clone that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award and an original car that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award!. Both earned the same points.......the same award......the same stature......and the same increased value......

Verne

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I am not intimately familiar with NCRS standards, but if your interpretation is accurate...you nailed it Verne.

BTW while we are on the subject, the term restoration drivetrain really torques me. I am not sure of the roots (I think I know who coined it), but it means restamp, fake, non original, but sounds more pleasant.

**iluv69s** · #5 01-22-2009, 03:44 PM

I dont think that one can blame the vette guys for the re-stamps of the Camaros. Chevelles,etc....The fact that they were first is a simple matter of economics. They were the first cars to be worth the effort ($$$) to obtain a restamped motor. The Camaros, Chevelles,etc. were just waiting for the values to go up.

At the Camaro Nationals in Carlisle, can a Camaro get a top award in the judging competition if the judges cannot tell it is a restamp?? If the restamp looks perfect??I suspect very few people admit that their motor is restamped even if they knew!!! So what other method is there for the judges?? If I put used or NOS parts on my car that are absolutely correct, I would not expect my car to be marked down...whether it is the block, heads, air cleaner or any other part...whether it is the original born-with parts or not!!

I have to stick up for the Vette guys here!! jmo

1railman · #6 01-22-2009, 04:13 PM

Yea, you sure can't blame the Corvette guys that there are more BE rears today than were ever made.

**m22mike** · #7 01-22-2009, 05:04 PM

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Yea, you sure can't blame the Corvette guys that there are more BE rears today than were ever made.

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They might be stammped to look like a BE.....but try and find the goodies that go inside.
If it were a car I did there would be a bunce of photo's of the inside stuff.
Mike

Mike

**Steve Shauger** · #8 01-22-2009, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think that one can blame the vette guys for the re-stamps of the Camaros. Chevelles,etc....The fact that they were first is a simple matter of economics. They were the first cars to be worth the effort ($$$) to obtain a restamped motor. The Camaros, Chevelles,etc. were just waiting for the values to go up.

At the Camaro Nationals in Carlisle, can a Camaro get a top award in the judging competition if the judges cannot tell it is a restamp?? If the restamp looks perfect??I suspect very few people admit that their motor is restamped even if they knew!!! So what other method is there for the judges?? If I put used or NOS parts on my car that are absolutely correct, I would not expect my car to be marked down...whether it is the block, heads, air cleaner or any other part...whether it is the original born-with parts or not!!

I have to stick up for the Vette guys here!! jmo

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When judging, my opinion:
NOS parts should only be awarded full point, if they match what was used in the original production of the car. Many NOS parts are worthless because they do not represent factory production parts. In fact many reproduction parts are much more accuarte and I feel that they should receive higher point due to accuracy and represent "best available". When possible use I recommend recondition original parts.

Restamping of components permeates virtually all brands and models. Fingers can be pointed, but that resolves nothing except make certain groups defensive.

In many cases restamped components can be detected, but once the restampers learn what the judges look for they hone their craft. Unfortunately you have individual funding the restoration drivetrain companies(restamper) enabling them to perfect their craft of deception. So who is to blame... car owners, judging programs, dealers, hobbyist, take your pick.

Regarding the Camaro nationals when restamped components are detected, the car scores based on that fact and it is noted and documented. It (restamping of components)is in no way embraced or justified. Are restamps undetected of course, but like cars judges are not perfect.

DarrenX33 · #9 01-22-2009, 06:35 PM

So what is the general thought on the proper way to restore a car that no longer has its original motor, trans or etc..

Do you just get a part that is cast correctly and ignore build stamps and VIN? Or just stamp the build stamp and leave the VIN off? Curious as I am building my motor now for my 70 L78.

1railman · #10 01-22-2009, 03:54 PM

It was human nature that spawned it; not the NCRS, they just addressed the inevidible. There will always be people who want their car as close to new as possible, that includes everything from chalk marks to original appearing motors. If ANY componant of car does not appear original it can't receive full credit.