1970 gto judge ram air IV

[BillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
bill, in response to your post (page 13) i guess that the article posted by joec (page 16) does in fact prove that a judge did in fact leave the factory with a ra 5 engine in it. what happened to it?? good question. never say never ever.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

In response to ìmrmuscleî on the recent topic of a magazine article on a RAV in Super Stock Magazine with a photo of a Judge, hereís the scoop: [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]

In 1969, Milt Schornack, Dave Warren, & Jim Wangers took several cars to Florida for testing (it was winter in Detroit). The base of operation for these cars was Colonial Pontiac and one of the dealer mechanics Jess Jesson also came out with the Royal guys with his í69 Judge. Royal brought the í69 Bobcat with a RAM AIR V, a í69 Judge with a RAM AIR IV (to compare against the RA V), Jim Wangersí white and gold 69 Grand Prix, and ROYALís NHRA legal 350 Firebird (which was taken to Pomona after the testing was done).

Because this was a ìP.R.î mission, a lot of testing was done on all cars. Wangers brought several signs to be used for photos on the various cars such as ìCars Magazineî, ìSuper Stockî, & ìPopular Hot Roddingî. These signs were used for various shots, as what was called ìfile footageî. For example, if a car was needed for ìCarsî Magazine with the RAM AIR V, photos would be available for that particular magazine to be used in conjunction with a Ram Air V article if the need ever arose.

The Super Stock article used such a ìfile footageî shot. I have many actual photos from that test session of the cars, with and without various signs. According to Milt, Dave, and Jim, the photo of the í69 Judge with Ram Air V signs in the Super Stock article is one of the mock-up ìfile footageî shots. To back up their statements, I have several different actual photos of this Judge with the same signs and background from the Florida test session. These shots were obviously done in Florida rather than Detroit. Also, if you look at the photo credit in the article, it reads ìphotos by GM Photographicî, not ìSuper Stockî. The motor photos were also ìfile photosî.

As a further point of reference, I even have photos of the 350 Firebird with RA V signs on it and no, it didnít have one in it at that time either! The one motor shot in the article (actually the í69 Firebird) was taken after the test session. I have the exact same original photo in my í69 ìRoyal Firebirdî file (see attachment). The car was taken to Dougís Headers on the way to Pomona, RA V heads installed so Dougís could use the Firebird as a ìmock-up" for F-body headers, then the 350 heads were re-installed. The ET times and data I believe to be taken from the Bobcatís records. There is nothing tricky or fancy about all this, it is how things were done back then by the P.R. people.

Now, back to the original TOPICÖThereís still no proof that Pontiac ever assembled a GTO with a RAM AIR V and sent it out to the retail public, so the final verdict is still the same as it was 340 posts ago! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Bill [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/[/img]

[mrmuscle]

whats the problem billyboy, afraid one of these two cars will overshadow your car? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[mrmuscle]

also billy, the way the story was, the cars were sent to knafel to race and probably were not intended to be sold, but like so many others they got sold. did you see the new high performance pontiac magazine. i guess you dont believe the article on the 65 light weight cars either. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[jfkheat]

Seems to me that one of you RAV guys need show positive proof that the cars came from the factory with the RAV. These magazine articles prove nothing. The author writes what he is told about the cars. They have no way to back up thier storys. It shouldn't be up to other people to prove that the cars didn't leave the factory with the RAV, it should be up to you to prove they did. As all muscle car and super car owners know, you have to have proper documentation to back up what you say you have. That is just my opinion and I could be wrong.
James
James

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you have your mind made up and are too closed minded to look at the facts and see what reality was back then. have you seen the article i was posting about?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, my mind is not made up. I just am smart enough to know never lend credence to a car magazine or any form of automotive literature.

I liken it to Jesus - when there's proof, I'll believe it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

[GTO_DON]

FOR THE LAST TIME! NO FACTORY RA V! I BELIEVE MIKE'S TIN INDIAN WILL BE UP THERE WITH THE ROYAL CAR BECAUSE OF ITS RACE HISTORY AND PROOF OF RUNNING A RA V BACK IN THE DAY,BUT THAT SILVER JUDGE WILL NEVER,I MEAN NEVER BE WORTH WHAT THE ROYAL CAR IS!! FOR ALL WE KNOW THE "memo" ON THE BUILD SHEET COULD HAVE MENT THAT CAR CAME WITH A 3SPEED! ALL WE HAVE IS A PIC OF A CAR AND PICS OF AN ENGINE NOT IN A CAR. THAT CAR COULD HAVE BEEN FOUND AS A BODY AND SOMEBODY HAD A GREAT IDEA TO BUY A RA V,STAMP IN A CODE AND MAKE A MAGICAL LOST RA V CAR! NO RACE HISTORY OR DOCUMENTATION MEANS "NO RA V" PERIOD!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif[/img] KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK ON PUTTING PEOPLE DOWN! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

[Gach]

I can tell you this, I've been into Pontiac's for over
30 years, and own just about every GTO made. In 1969
a friend and I were sponsored by Gorton Tire and Speed
and race a 1969 Judge, I was a member of Royal Pontiac, which was later bought out by George Delorean and Called Leader Automotive, George is John Delorean's brother, incase you didn't know, George also at one time work for Pontiac, and had a lot of connections. He also built
the Ram Air 1V motor for the 69 Judge we Raced. The only Ram Air V's sold where to racing Pontiac sponsored dealerships.

There is NO WAY any 1970 GTO came or was order with a Ram Air V trust me if it was at all possible I would've had one. I did how ever get to see a 1970 Firebird race team Called "Steven Pontaic" at Conn Drag Way ( now closed ) these guys were running 10.80's with a Ram Air V motor, they were also sponsored by Pontaic.

Wanger's was just and add man, all though to listen to the crap and books that's out their now you would think he invented the GTO, NOT true. although he tired to take credit. By the way I still own a 1970 Ram Air 1V Judge, all original. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

[Charley Lillard]

Gach...Welcome to the Site and thanks for the informative post. And please fill out your Profile.

[Gach]

Ok figured out how to up date my profile.
Thanks Gach

[JLP]

Just thought I would stir the bucket but in slightly different manner.

How many of you are aware that Motion Performance published a book called "Pontiac Performance Guide and Catalog"? It has a TP article in it. It has Pix of the car of the blue/white'69 GTO even though it is black & white.

I also have the Cars, SS&DI as well as another article. All are '69 and is only mention of the hope they would be put in factory cars.

This is almost as much fun/informative as the discussions that used to go on about '71 T-37, 455HO cars that happened years ago. Able to prove those though.

I like others would like to see proof that they came from the factory with the RA V engine. Wouldn't it be great.

By the way as far as engine transplants go, Pontiac guys should never forget Myrtle Motors. They transplanted 428's in FB and GTO cars. Wonder if anyone has one of these?