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  #41  
Old 02-12-2004, 11:59 PM
70 copo 70 copo is offline
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

25 years ago a wrecked car that had the quarters replaced due to an accident was considered wrecked, "junk" or worth significantly less than a car that was unrestored, original and as a result - less desirable.

Perhaps 25 years from now rebody cars will be classified as "original sheetmetal" or "completly reproduced" (on a new body) and then we will be arguing about the originality of the restoration - that is if any thing is left of the body that is original GM at all.

Looks like there will be plenty of 1st gen cars around for a long time. The market will drive the extent of the fakery. If the prices contune to rise on these cars the market will find a way to sell them. The next thing they will try to fake is the body sheetmetal dates!
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  #42  
Old 02-13-2004, 05:42 AM
hvychev hvychev is offline
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

Ed I have to tell you. I hate these rebody threads because everyone seems to be saying the same thing but you have said it best.
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  #43  
Old 02-13-2004, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

Darn hvychev, after a comment like that you make it awfully hard to say anymore. Looks like the only way to go from there is down. Let's look at some questions I would have regarding the blazer accident. It is without a doubt a terrible tragedy that young lady lost her life. I do not want to take away from that. Some things that I would want to know about it though are:

1. Was this gentlemen a certified body technician?
2. Did he also perform any mechanical work needed, and if
so was he cerified in that field also?
3. If he had someone else do any mechanical work were they
certified?
4. In our state when transferring a title on any vehicle a
damage disclosure statement has to be filled out. Was
this done and if so was it accurate?
5. At some point between the length of time it took to
repair the vehicle and the 6 months of ownership past
did the vehicle not come up for a state safety inspection
and if so was the suspension not checked then?
6. It was stated that the owners thought there was something
wrong with the vehicle. Why did they not have it checked?
7. It was stated that the young lady was speeding at the
time of the accident. Was this not also a cause?
8. After another serious accident with apparently a lot of
vehicle damage how was it concluded that the repairs
were at fault? Was it that apparent that there was
pre-existing damage?

Of course in all of this we do not have access to the actual facts, so any and all conclusions we come to would be speculation at best. It would be my guess though that the big issue based on what we were told is the lack of disclosure and the lack of verifiable certification to make the repairs needed. When a lawyer asks you for yourbackground and you have no suspension training and all you can say is "I have fixed a bunch of them." He then gets to say something smart like "Well, you've been awfully lucky up until now haven't you? Just like the one gentlemen previously stated you need to be very careful if you are going to do this kind of work, and have the proper training and skills to do the job.

As to this new camaro unibody, what I just heard said was pedigree. If someone used it to repair a 307 automatic would anyone care? If someone gave you one of those super camaros on "cars in barns" and you could only repair it with a rebody what would you do? If you did rebody it would you look for a good clean original GM camaro or choose a nice new unibody? I am just asking Questions of you and it would be great if some of you would post not what is expected or accepted but your true feelings. Good or bad. Another gentlemen earlier in this post asked if it was really that hard to tell the truth. Let's see. My feelings on the unibody as a part though is that first we need to see if it is as strong as the original and all components fit properly, and that is of course when someone uses one and admits it. Seems to me though it would be hard to use to make a passable fake. All the other repop parts have little deviations from original GM and I am sure the real experts here, which by the way I am not one, could easily point out the things that make it obvious this is not an original part. Titleing and data transfer issues aside as discussed, if safety in our cars is truly an issue isn't there some shells that need way too much metal repair to really be that safe? Would you truly throw away that Zl1, Yenko, COPO, etc. if it were? I think this fellow is apparently driving one of those rebody cars, as the rear end seems to have fallen off.
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  #44  
Old 02-13-2004, 05:03 PM
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YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY is offline
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

Ed, well said, I'm tending to agree with you as well.
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  #45  
Old 02-13-2004, 09:13 PM
Belair62 Belair62 is offline
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

And isn't this the way all posts should go ! Perfect.Makes sense and no one is bleeding...it's just like the old days ! THAT'S how it should stay....great info.
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  #46  
Old 02-13-2004, 10:13 PM
Kim_Howie Kim_Howie is offline
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

Here's one to think about. The factory worker that put those cars together new Were mostly general laborers, NOT cert. mechanics like we have today. Rebulding a 60's car is totally diferent than a wrecked new one of today!
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  #47  
Old 02-14-2004, 01:11 AM
Norm reynolds Norm reynolds is offline
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

Ed you just made the same point I made in the beginning
(In our state when transferring a title on any vehicle a
damage disclosure statement has to be filled out. Was
this done and if so was it accurate?)
I start out stated that in Pa when a car has a lot of work to the extent to like this blazer that seem to be close to benign totaled or re-bodied (but I do not know what the real story is)
You must disclose the repairs and have salvage or re- constructed title is that not the same thing?? By having a salvage title tell s who ever buys the car was damage and was repaired
I just got back from a friends shop that does restorations and showed him this thread after reading this Bill said he stop clipping cars five years ago I asked why and he said two words law suites he went on that just because you are certified and have a state licensed and have insurance does not keep a smart attorney taking every thing you own away from you. He reminded me of a friend that had a gas station and had a good business but lost it all one night a guy pull in with a nail in his tire
A 18 old kid that was working pumping gas pull the nail and plugged it The guy leaves the gas station go s to a bar. Four hours later he leaves the bar wasted
. Drives a few blocks blows a red light and slams in to another car broadside killing a little girl The guy had no drivers licensed no insurance did not own a home he had nothing So a smart attorney start investigating the car and finds the tire with a plug in it
To make a long story short this attorney convinces a jury that the plug in the tire could make the car not handle right and that caused the accident
Now did that plug in that tire cause the accident??? Heck no. The gas station owner had insurance but this ended up a multimillion-dollar law suite and it wiped him out
Bill said if a car that he worked on got in an accident and it had nothing to do with what he did it would not stop a good attorney from going after him and all his certifications will not help him
Ed I sorry that I do not agree with you about re-body or clipping May be in Nc things are a little different but up here every body is lawsuit happy
You asked if I had ZL-1 , yenko or what ever and it need to be re-bodied would I throw it away .Ed I did this with a numbers matching 1967 GTX I had YES I would throw it away. Sorry I know no body will agree with me but that is how I feel
Just to let you know I do have a state safety and emission license and ASE master tech
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  #48  
Old 02-14-2004, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

I like for things to be civil too. I am really enjoying this sight. Thanks for letting me play. Norm, I think you actually answered you own question. The problem seems to me to be that folks where you live are sue happy, just as you say. Is plugging a tire illegal in your state? We plug tires here in NC too. I do respect your opinion regarding the clipping of cars, however as a mechanic, do you no longer change U joints because the driveshaft may fall out? No longer do brake jobs because the booster may leak and cause the brakes to fail? No longer replace bulbs because it may go out and not illuminate as a brake light or turn signal and cause an accident? How about your body shop friend. Does he no longer replace windshields because the glass may blow out? Certified technicians perform chores everyday that require special skills and training to do. Some times they make mistakes. We are human, and that is why we do carry liability insurance. Agree with them or not some tasks are performed that can have drastic consequences everyday, but due to economics or the needs of the people they are still done. Did you know that when the Saint Louis arch was built the government estimated that 9 men would die in it's construction? Is a arch really worth the lives of 9 men? But it was built anyway, and thankfully no one died during the construction. I still stand by my opinion also. Clipping if done by trained professionals is a safe and acceptable method of repair. Trained technicians work on airplanes, build bridges, erect tall buildings everyday. I wouldn't want a bagboy working on the airplane I was going to ride in, The cook at McDonald's to build my skyscraper, and hopefully for no plumbers to moonlight as McDonald's cooks either. You need the right folks with the right training in the right jobs, and things get done and done well. As to your friend not clipping cars I think it has more to do with economics than anything else. Anyone who does body work knows that you can make a lot more money doing parking lot scrapes and fender benders than large projects and vehicles with particularly heavy damage. Why would you want to get bogged down on a large project that is going to be much more aggrevating to do and less financially rewarding when it is complete? Same way with the rebuilders you say went out of business. I think it has more to do with economics. Since cars are so much more expensive and it takes a lot more damage to total them, it is hard to justify the labor and material investment considering the return when the damage is so great and the air bags are blown out. I am not saying they are not repairable, just that it is not financially viable to do so. The only reason I got involved with this topic anyway was in defense of the gentlemen who is clipping his car. I still say he will have a safer and much more satisfying repair if he clips it than if it were built piece mill. If a welder cannot weld 2 windshield posts, 2 rockers, and a floor pan he doesn't need to be welding, let alone doing all the welding that would be required to do it a piece at a time. Also as to the fellow that is putting the floor and cowl in his car, they did basically the same thing to a 65 Shelby on Dream Car Garage and it turned out really nice, neccesary because in it's younger days it had been raced and wrecked. After it was fixed he ran the daylights out of it. Must have a good welder. Norm, I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine, even though we do disagree. Our opinions are just that, opinions. I am sure there are folks on both sides of the fence. If you don't want to clip cars, then just don't do it. Personally I think if it were that bad of a thing it would be illegal just as making trailers from mobile home axles and tires, and 2 piece truck rims have become. Bottom line, just fix your car however you feel comfortable with, and be up front about it when you decide to sell. They all have some kind of warts you know.
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  #49  
Old 02-14-2004, 06:53 AM
bbg bbg is offline
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

I went back and read the original post and I think in all of this we have still missed one point. If the unibody on a camaro was really that bad and say it was a COPO, etc. and did indeed need to be totally replaced, how would you really know? If there were people who were familiar with the car they may tell. The people doing the work may tell. The owner may tell. What if no one tells? If you were using a good clean unibody and welded up the vin stampings which are normally hid from view anyway so that the acid test would not show them, and then you restamped them with the needed data, how could anyone really tell? An ethical issue, yes. But how could you tell? Surely with a little work the data plate could be put back on till you couldn't tell. When it was complete would it not just look like a fresh frame off resto? Does it really matter that much? If it started out as a fake, sure it is a fake. If it started out real, is it still real or is it now a fake, or is it a repair? And even as to the clip we have discussed, couldn't you just put in new rockers and a floor pan and no one would know because now the evidence of the cut is gone? Everyone seems to be perfectly content with installing a zillion new panels. It was all that rust you know. Why make a big deal out of the clip if it is OK to do new inner and outer front fenders, radiator support, hood, quarters, inner quarters, rockers, floor pan, trunk floor, tail panel, trunk lid, Isn't this pretty well rebodying the car? Yet with this avenue I hear no one complain. It is just better now because it has all this fresh new sheet metal. Do we really have our own opinion on this or are we just following the status quo? This is the way it has always been so that is the way it is. Opinions?
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  #50  
Old 02-14-2004, 07:00 AM
RichSchmidt RichSchmidt is offline
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Default Re: rebodied with out salvage a title

It is all a scam.In New Jesey,there is no technical certification required to take someone's money to fix the mechanicals or the body damage on their car.80% of all the shops in my area have technicians with no credentials whatsoever{I worked in the busness for 10 years and made it to"A" tech without any training except airconditioning certification).All the local government cares about is that the shop has the right paperwork,and that only refers to having the shop in a properly zoned area and having any environmental issues taken care of{spraybooth if you want to paint and stuff like that}.Salvage titled cars can be repaired by any do it yourselfer in his back yard[but he cant charge somebody money for it},and if the state inspector feels the repairs are satisfactory,and no stolen parts were used the car will get a registerable title issued,but it will always bear the "S" to warn any future buyers.If a car isnt totaled by an insurance company,it doenst matter how bad the body damage is after an accident,there will be no official record of it.If the owner has only liabilty insurance on the car,and he wraps it around a tree and makes it into a horseshoe,and his cousin bubba fixes it by chaining it to the same tree and driving it backwards until the frame is straight and then hanging junkyard or stolen panels on the car and spraying shiny paint on it in his backyad,there will be no record of it,and the police dont even have to write an accident report if the owner doesnt want one.So a car that appears "virgin" could actually be the worst wreck of them all.What is really scary is that if such a car were ever in an accident later on,and the shoddy repairs caused a problem,the owner or repairman could just shrug it off and say,they dont know anything about it,and that the repairs must have been made by another owner at some other point in the car's life.
As for clipped cars,or rebodies,I tend to agree that from a restoration standpoint,a rebody might be more corect.If You find a Copo Camaro in a barn,and it is a 100% complete all numbers matching car that hasnt been driven in 30 years,but is rotted to death,would a future admirer of this car get a more accurate image of the car if it had welded on patch panels,and obvious signs of repair work,or would it be more correct if a clean rust free 307 powerd body were used which still wore all the original seamseal,and had all the original body fitment issues of an actual factory car?
I believe I posted once before about the 396 convertable Camaro that was on Ebay a few months ago.This car needed a front subframe,floors,inner and outer rockers,a tail panel,full 1/4's,inner and outer rear wheelhouses,and trunk floor and dropoffs,and was nothing more then a bare body shell and a complete numbers matching engine,but no other driveline parts.There will be no paper trail following tis car,and regardless of if it gets rebodied or gets the Goodmark book thown at it,somewhere down the line,this car will turn up as a pristine low mileage original on some vintage car trader's lot,and top dollar will be paid for it and nobody will be the wiser.It is the nature of the beast.
Here is one to get you all mad.A friend of mine works at BMW,and he fixes cars that are damaged during transport.He claims that hanging quarter panels and even roof skins on brand new cars before they go to the dealers is common place,and that the cars are sold as new and undamaged cars.He showed me one car with over 800 dents in it from a hailstorm while on the boat,and the shop employs a paintless dent removal expert who worked out every single dimple in that car{and it looked like a 2 ton golfball}without putting any paint on it,and the car was on it's way to a happy home after a 1 week delay in the body shop.A few years back another friend who works at a body shop showed me photos of a brenad new minivan that fell off a car carrier,and was brought to his independent shop to be fixed.They got paid $17,000 to replace every piece of sheet metal on this thing except one door frame,and about half of the floor.A new roof and roof structrue was added along with every pice of sheet metal,and a partial unibody,and this thing went on the dealer lot as a brand new vehicle.The same shop had him put a new frame under a pickup truck that was smashed when being used as a Demo,and it too was sold as an unrepaired vehicle with no record of the damage.So maybe that ZL1 camaro was rebodied by the dealer back in 1969?[yeah right}
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