1969 Copo ?

[Charley Lillard]

Enough already.

[William]

Hi Stefano:

Challenge away! I welcome intellectual debate. You have been around the cars as long as I have.

You’re correct; I do not agree. My position has everything to do with my long history in the hobby, virtually all of it involving the ’69 Camaro-bought my first in 1975. When I started out with CPX in the ‘80s buying/selling parts one often bought as much as they sold at a good meet. In fact I often walked those swaps with some of your buds: Stevie, George, Ron, The Hippie, Drew, Joe. Parts were everywhere and as a group we sold it all: disc brake sub frames, DZ engines, 837 alternators, 4053 & 4346 carbs, 472 & 163 intakes, YH & XT wheels. We sold 2 BE axles [I know where they are…]. Many parts were still available from GM such as the TH400 cross member, BB frame mounts, fan shrouds. We stocked and sold all of that also. Now imagine 15 years of that exposure-where did all those parts go? The Frost Green clone I mentioned was certainly one recipient. Another was a triple black ’69 SS-RS convertible L78 clone, done correctly and to near perfection. I know for a fact it was re-sold years ago as being real. If you know what you are doing it isn’t hard to do.

So from my standpoint claiming a car is a COPO only because it happens to have all the correct componentry, holes, clips, whatever, is ludicrous. Several good books out there showing what is needed; plenty of parts around. This in particular applies to cars that have had a long rough life and cars that have undergone complete restorations. In both cases there is often virtually nothing original remaining; anything could have been done to them. A case might be made for a car that was in untouched survivor condition but just happens to no longer have its original engine or paperwork.

The CRG has no involvement whatsoever in “certifying” anything.

Some don’t care for my viewpoint; some may not care for yours. But as a couple of guys that have a long history in the hobby it is important that we speak our minds. Let the chips fall where they may.

[Stefano]

"The CRG has no involvement whatsoever in “certifying” anything."

I believe the CRG has done a wonderful job of collecting and presenting data regarding first generation Camaros. I reference the published data often.

You and I can debate semantics, so call it what you will, but at least one of the CRG "core" members (this is stated as a credential on the actual certificates) will certify as well as render opinions regarding the authenticity as well as validity of a first generation Camaro and or parts and components to include COPOs as well as other vehicles, some of which are not Survivors, do not have any factory paperwork and sometimes do not even have one single original drivetrain component.

I'm not questioning your degree of knowledge regarding COPOs and their components, I would believe that you know as much as anyone regarding the subject matter.

Since you like to quote definitions, look up "certification". You state that it can't be done, I disagree. While the credibility and value of a given "certification" may be subjective, it has been done.
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I believe that calling out a potentially real factory original COPO Camaro is a good thing. I also believe that those who use their knowledge and info to restamp, retag, fake up cars and or parts and or purposely attempt to defraud people are criminals.

[DW31S]

I've been following this thread since the beginning and have come to a couple different conclusions.
First: I would say that the car is probably worth gambling on, although I am not interested in buying it. A decent '69 Camaro race car has some value and depending on how nice it is in person, the asking price isn't out of the stratosphere.
Second: I would consider this an "entry-level" COPO (a new term) as this car probably will never have the original components and/or documentation. This being the case, in my opinion, it may not warrant a high-end restoration as it might be a money losing proposition. How much is a non- numbers and non-documented "possible" COPO worth? Is it worth more than the price of the car, the price of the COPO-specific pieces that are missing, and the cost of the restoration including chrome, sheet metal , etc. when you total all of these things?
Third: William and Stefano and many others have voiced their opinions and each of those opinions are formed by data and experience. While these opinions do have validity, they do also differ. Opinions should differ---we are talking about a 45 year old race car with no supporting paper trail or any original documentation. I'd be more surprised if everyone thought the same.
The guys and gals here know their stuff, but instead of the bantering and cross examinations, why not pool the facts and draw a reasonable conclusion and see if there really is a hidden Supercar that has surfaced?

[markinnaples]

DW, There's no room for rational thinking and calm discourse on the internet!

[Stefano]

I'd keep it as a race car and run the "Oldtimers" as the Super Car Reunion........wheels up!

[Kurt S]

Stefano,
Jerry is a member of the CRG. Jerry certifies/appraises cars.
But that doesn't mean that the CRG does. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

No matter who does an appraisal, one should read the report and understand what the basis of the conclusion was.

[Stefano]

That is exactly one of my main points, you have one CRG member who states that you cannnot certify a COPO without factory paperwork and/or original engine/drivetrain and you have another who does without any of the above.

[Kurt S]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is exactly one of my main points, you have one CRG member who states that you cannnot certify a COPO without factory paperwork and/or original engine/drivetrain and you have another who does without any of the above. </div></div>
So?? How does that involve CRG? This is a stretch.
Neither are posting or appraising as the CRG. Affiliation does not make CRG complicit in their statements.

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is exactly one of my main points, you have one CRG member who states that you cannnot certify a COPO without factory paperwork and/or original engine/drivetrain and you have another who does without any of the above. </div></div>
So?? How does that involve CRG? This is a stretch.
Neither are posting or appraising as the CRG. Affiliation does not make CRG complicit in their statements. </div></div>

The CRG is a tremendous resourse, none of my points are meant to be derogagtory to the CRG.

I'll try to make my main point again; <span style="font-weight: bold">1969 COPO 9561 L72 Camaros can sometimes be authenticated, verified and &quot;certified&quot; without any of their original drivetrain and/or with out any dealer paperwork.</span>

Point number two: A &quot;core member&quot; of an organization which specializes in first generation Camaros facts/data/assembly processes etc. states the opposite while another &quot;core&quot; member of the same first generation Camaro &quot;organization&quot; routinely certifies such Camaros as COPOs and happens to state his core membership of CRG as a credential of expertise on his certificates.

Who is the ultimate &quot;voice&quot; for the CRG? Does the CRG have any, even one single 1969 Camaros in their data base, which do not have paperwork or numbers matching drivetrains, which are classified as 9561 COPOs or potential COPOs?