Unique Shelby Convertible for sale

[Dave Rifkin]

Guys, this no longer seems like a "Cars For sale" thread. Can it be moved into a more appropriate location?

[Born30YrsLate]

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I think its great that Les has provided the info....

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And that the discussion was done with tact and not as a screaming match, which shows good character from each side...

[Les Quam]

Chip,

The reason this car has generated so much discussion is because it is a well known car and you represented in your post of 11/20/05 at 8:21 PM that it was "an original matching numbers engine". You then indicated in your next post on the same day but at 11:58 PM that it was possible that the original engine had been found after possibly sitting in someones garage and returned to the car.

The Shelby registry issued in 1988 has for years documented that your car did not have it's original engine and depending how you read it possibly had the block replaced a couple of times. The original block was ruined in circa 1969. For you or anyone to represent that your car has the original engine was simply ridiculous given it's written recorded history.

It is important to note that I was not merely guessing or speculating regarding the history of your car. I was using the Shelby registry and it's written recorded history as a framework for my post on this thread. One of the great things about Shelby's and why they are so vauable is because the registry helps to record the history of cars like yours so that RESTAMPED date code correct blocks don't get passed off as original down the road.

You also originally started this thread representing that the car was "triple black" which also was incorrect.

It seems to me that you may not have even looked at the Shelby registry before you bought this car and offered it for sale at 375,000 dollars on this forum. Because if you had read the history of your car in the registry you would have known what color it was and that the block was not original. You were offering for sale a RESTAMPED engine block without disclosing that fact before I raised the issue. I am not going to apologize for alerting members of this forum and other potential buyers that the car did not in fact have it's "original matching numbers engine" as you originally claimed but which was contradicted in the Shelby registry since 1988!

When I originally indicated that the car was sold at RS I was going from memory from 2001. The fact that it was sold at RS doesn't change the fact that it was sold at an auction AND that the mileage as found on the RM records is less than mentioned in the registry in 1988. Frankly I don't know what difference it makes which auction it was sold at in Monteray in 2001? As long as it was sold in Monteray in 2001?

Finally do not imply that you have made any attempts to contact me for more information because you have made none. If you want to know what parts are on YOUR car get out from behind your computer and walk out and look at YOUR car and write the part numbers down with the date codes and publish them on this forum to set the record straight. Do not blast me or DEMAND anything from me or attempt to put my friends in the middle of YOUR problems.

I assume you have parts on your car if they are original and date code correct the parts will speak for themselves all they need is for someone to walk out and record them.

If you don't know where to look hire your own expert to go over the car for you. You live in the Shelby and Mustang capital of the world in that perhaps more noted collectors and experts live within minutes of your cars location than other areas of the country.

Please note that I have repeatedly stated that IMHO your car would bring a world record price upon sale that it's restoration workmenship was outstanding and is at a minimum a MCA concours gold level car as it sits today perhaps higher. I fail to see how that can possibly be contstrued as a negative opinion regarding your car? The FACT that written recorded history indicates that your car does not have it's original block, is not triple black and was sold in Monteray on August 17, 2001 are not my opinion they are facts.

As other members of this forum including yourself have stated on this thread rumors regarding your car losing many of it's original and NOS parts over the years has followed this car for quite some time. It seems to me that you should spend less time blasting me and making demands of me and more time out with your car with a pad of paper and a flashlight writing down parts numbers and date codes if you think the issue casts a negative cloud over your cars value to put this issue to rest. For a small amount you can also retain an MCA or SAAC gold card judge to examine your car and support the results of YOUR research and finally put the rumors to rest.

And finally it takes more than a check book to put original and NOS parts on your car. It can take years of hunting and much help from your friends and their friends to find them and IF you ever find them then your going to need a fat checkbook IMHO.

This is the end for me on this thread.

[WWMCMike]

Just want to add some FACT to this conversation. The gentleman whao had this Shelby restored and sold it at BJ was the man Chip listed as "J". The car was sold to Mr. S. Kilian of Wisconsin. After purchasing the car in January in Scottsdale, he took the car home to use as a driver. Upon calling some of the people involved in the restoration of the car, he was made aware of the FACT that this Shelby was in the same condition as it was when it won the Premiere award and was by no means a car he should drive. Not wanting to own a trailer queen, he took the car to the RM sale in Monterey where I purchased it. The car then came to me and sat in my showroom for a few years. We took the car to a MCA Grand National event where it was judged in the Thoroughbred class, and won. We then brought the car back to our shop where it sat until Chip bought it. At no time did any parts come off of this Shelby. I have spoken with many Shelby (SAAC) Judges who know this car and have seen this car in the very condition in which it sits today. It is in THEIR opinion that this Shelby convertible is among the top 3 shelby convertibles in existence. One belonging to A. Freidel and the other belonging to Bob Gaines. It really bothers me that someone would get on here and try to degrade a car like this without having hard facts. This is a great car, and in my opinion, worth EVERY penny that Chip is asking. If I owned this car today, I can't say the his price would buy it. If ANYONE has any questions concerning this car, please feel free to contact Mike McCullough at 405-760-6732.
Thank you.

[Stuart Adams]

I would hire one of the top Shelby judges in the country to go over the car in my presence if I was ever to buy it.
Photograph and document everything. Just my opinion.

This is probably a good discussion for all collector cars in general, because the NOS parts are so valueable for all cars that harvesting them off the car and Repop replacements is big $. The average consumer would have no idea.
The people hunting down and paying for these NOS parts are passionate about NOS vs. Repop - that is what seperates or gives distance from one cars quality vs. another.

I could easily see a person looking at a car for sale on Friday, buying the car on Friday, having the car delivered the next Friday with different Repop parts that the average consumer would not know.

Like Les said, get a judge to check the parts, then it would be settled. He was in no way degrading the car, just stating written Registry facts.

[PeteLeathersac]

Nice thread....everyone's being very civil as these facts come out. . And Racefan's right, it is a similar to the thread where this situation was being discussed last week! . Regardless of the motor originality, it probably being worth the amount either way....when this car was "certified", although the engine replacement was a known and recorded fact by one group, was this and the restamp taken into account or was it thought to be the original engine by the certifying body? . Perhaps a "Restoration Motor" term is part of the paperwork all along? . Where along the line was the restamp not disclosed....I don't think Mike above mentions what he was aware of when he had the car? . And what's the mileage....is there a speedo issue here too??? ~ Pete

[WWMCMike]

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There is a dealer down south who specilaizes in buying Thoroughbreds and stripping the parts then reselling the cars as a Thoroughbred. I know of three Thoroughbreds this dealer has stripped and resold.

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This seems to be a very interesting statement. Care to elaborate on who this may be?

Mike

[Stuart Adams]

That should not be debated here, Les is out of this thread.

Bottom line: a car was posted here for sale, documented issues were brought up, buyer and seller should get it checked out, move on...

[WWMCMike]

Not trying to stir the pot, just have a simple question. Why is it OK for someone to come on here and give third party information regarding the authenticity of a car and or a cars history, but, not OK for someone to ask where the info came from? I do believe forums like this one can be good in some instances, to help reduce the chances of someone being burned by dishonest folks. But I don't believe it is right to blast someones car or have a "tear apart party" like so commonly occurs here. I realize some of you reading this may not agree with what I have to say, and I understand where you come from. I think this site does alot of good and I believe things like this situation cast a shadow over some of its members objectives.

And to respond to you Mr. Adams, I agree, it is up to the buyer and seller to be on the same page about the car first. But documented issues were not brought up here. Hear say was brought up as fact and it is incorrect and needs to be handled as such.

[golfer]

Les,

I have repeatedly stated that I appreciate your help and guidance on this matter. Moreover, the day after you indicated my car was not numbers matching, I researched this and found it to be true and I found, as I indicated, the VIN was stamped in the block. I stated these facts very clearly on this site.

However, Les you also stated

“I have been following [this car] since it sold at Russo and Steele in August of 2001 ….it doesn't have ….any of the expensive original parts left on it from when it won the Thoroughbred award……Through several owners all the hard to find irreplaceable parts fell off and were sold. I know people who bought some of the parts off the car….”

Now we have a conundrum. Mike from Worldwide has joined this fray and indicated in his reply above that the car has had no parts removed. He also has traced the ownership history. The car has had only 3 owners since it was sold at BJ and only two owners since the sale Les mentions in Monteray (Worldwide and me). Les, I know that neither I, nor Worldwide, nor Mr. Kilian (per Mike at Worldwide), nor the owner prior to Barrett Jackson (per my conversation with the restorer) have removed or sold any parts off this car. Nor have we seen any “irreplaceable parts fall off” as you stated.

Les, it seems your recollection or what you have been told by others is in direct conflict with statements from the cars owners. It will be easy to clear this up. The simple and inexpensive way to get to the truth would be for you to tell me the name and phone number of one or two of the people that you said you know and that have “bought some of the parts off the car.” I will gladly call them and report back the information, just as I did with regard to the motor.

As for me hiring an expert, why should I go to this expense when it would be very easy and inexpensive just to make a couple of phone calls? I may do this anyway, but the phone calls are much quicker.

Again, I am just trying to get to the truth and not disparage anyone or create ill will. Moreover, I know how rumors spread and things get twisted around. That is why I indicated that at the time Worldwide had my 1969 Shelby they also had a SAAC premiere level 1966 Shelby, and parts had been removed from the 1966 car. Maybe this is the source of the confusion, assuming everyone is telling the truth as they know it.

Chip Wright

Anyone feel free to contact me with additional information about this matter
cell 770-365-1872
Home 678-305-0756
Work 770-956-1225