Mecum - Pebble Beach

[daveg]

I agree and disagree with this.

First "numbers matching" to a Chevy person generally means the partial VIN on block pad.

Hemi Mopars do not have that until 68 on bellhousing area of block.
It is on machined pad by oil pan 69- 71.

In the 80's when I was very active with Hemi Mopars {18 of them] most loose blocks floating around did not have any partial VIN's on them.
You can thank old racers for this as Hemis were- are quite successful at it. Was at the Brainerd NHRA nationals a few years ago and watched John Forces crew freshen a motor up.
looked to be a copy of a 426 to me.

Numbers- dates being right on all parts was the focus.
Ever try to find factory bolts and odd washers for Hemi exhaust manifolds?
The odd hardware for attaching intake manifolds?

That is my background and why we are such detail freaks about her "OLE BLUE" 69 L78 M22 Chevelle hardtop.

Her 68 converts all have 13867 VIN's so not a worry there.
Her 68 hardtop is 13837 so no worries there either.

The 69 is 13637 like any V-8 Chevelle and the other stuff authenticates it.
It is very original and why she bought it.
Thought all its little details would be of interest but that does not seem to be the case.
Interesting to us though and that is the main point.

Agree that more attention is being paid to the "born with" thing on Mopar's.
Seems to be more high-end collectors chasing multiple makes nowadays and the "born with" thing is pretty deeply entrenched in Chevyland.

Personally, I like pretty much all.
Even had a couple 68 AMX 390 4 spd cars.

The Hemi phase taught me to look at the dates- numbers minutia. Remember not everyone likes the same thing and that is good.

Pics are my current illness!!!

Originally Posted by tom406

I'm going to note that while musclecar era Mopars and Fords have relied much less on "numbers matching" born-with engines to prove their provenance, as these cars get more expensive I am seeing "numbers matching" engines becoming more important to buyers, probably for bragging rights. The value uptick for original engine in 428CJ Mustangs and Hemi or 6 pack cars has increased over the last decade and buyers concern for it has grown. IMO.

[Steve Shauger]

Originally Posted by daveg

Chevy folks [with the exception of 66- 68 SS chevelles] are used to the VIN telling you basically nothing.
Cowl tags are sorta worthless also.

Not so on either count with Mopars.
VIN tells you EXACTLY what motor came in car.
Fender tag or tags tell you exactly what came on car.
Build sheets are common in Mopars also.

"Born with" is secondary to proper dates- numbers on Hemi Cars.

Heck of a lot easier to fake a LS6 Chevelle than a Hemi Mopar.

No matter what brand, fake cars are built. Your example of Mopar is misleading. For example cars have been built with just the VIN tag, and accurate repop fender tag have been available for years. My point like all brands fake Mopars exist, especially with the values they bring.

Regarding your example of LS6's most have buildsheets or data cards validating original build equipment components. Yes these can be faked as well. Another point is if you are purchasing a car due your diligence and hire an expert to inspect the car. Many cars have known histories. If you truly want a no excuse car you need to do research and if you have limited knowledge hire someone reputable.

Finally, for me I am only interested in no excuse cars with born drivetrain, real docs and original as possible. Although paperwork is important, I still own cars with no paperwork, but Vin, Trim and Components are validated and are real as rain.

[Hawkeye]

You wrote: "Thought all its little details would be of interest but that does not seem to be the case."


I would just like to state that this group is very much into all the little details. It just needs to be presented in a format that can be followed. Tell the story from the beginning. Post clear pictures and talk about what is found. We all learn from original cars and it is very fascinating to most here. You will see most threads on recently discovered or purchased cars do get a lot of feedback.

Cheers,
Marty

[daveg]

Was not my intent to muddy the waters or ruffle feathers but seems I did.
I am not the person to write articles or give lectures.
You were seeing my best efforts and if inadequate so be it.

On the Hemi cars built around a tag yes, I am aware of that.

Will attempt to relate a story about that I was VERY involved in.
Early 90's a good friend traded numerous Hemi and 6pack cars for a 71 Hemi Cuda 4spd convert.
He was in southern MO and car came from IL.

He had the car for a few months, and I stopped by and we spent the entire eve and night going over the car.
It was painted bot not assembled.

Motor and tranny were 'matching numbers" and all stamped body numbers tags and title all matched.
Body had much repair so checking things was difficult.
He had many other cars to check against.
Stamped numbers on body matched well with other 71 Plymouth cars.

Moved to mechanical stuff and many dates were wrong.
Worst being vin stamps on motor tranny did not match exactly with his other blocks- trannys.

Sheet metal was all NOS as was the trim.

Dates on wheels were a scrambled mess.

Looking bad and checking fender tags [2] and VIN tag the fonts were very close as was the stencil on dash tag.
We then found out why they were not EXACTLY the same.
Both tags were made of the wrong material.

This all adds up to a 71 Barracuda convert being turned into a 71 Hemi Cuda 4spd convert.
Carried its factory sequence number with a fake dash and fender tags to match a fantasy title probably from Alabama .
That was the place back then.

The same person that created this ended up in jail for same trick on a 71 Hemi 4spd Cuda.

This fake convert was parted out and I personally saw the title, dash tag and fender tags destroyed with a torch by the creator.
Handed them back to him after the last of the agreed to compensation was loaded.
Kept car as it was an excellent collection of nice and NOS 71 Cuda parts.

This was a fairly well-known event in the early 90's.
So yes I know about faked Mopars.

[napa68]

This thread certainly got off the rails

[napa68]

daveg

There is an enormous wheelhouse of knowledge on this site. They don't always post what they know, I suspect to avoid enabling the counterfeiter's. Overall, there are site members that possess the knowledge to authenticate the cars you insinuate are so easily counterfeited. Vague and ambiguous statements typically don't go far here.

On a positive note..... welcome to the site. There is always room for more. I'll also add, you are in some tall company.

[Steve Shauger]

Originally Posted by napa68

daveg

There is an enormous wheelhouse of knowledge on this site. They don't always post what they know, I suspect to avoid enabling the counterfeiter's. Overall, there are site members that possess the knowledge to authenticate the cars you insinuate are so easily counterfeited. Vague and ambiguous statements typically don't go far here.

On a positive note..... welcome to the site. There is always room for more. I'll also add, you are in some tall company.

Tim thanks for providing Dave an orientation and welcome to the site.!

[Jimlt4383]

Originally Posted by Steve Shauger

No matter what brand, fake cars are built. Your example of Mopar is misleading. For example cars have been built with just the VIN tag, and accurate repop fender tag have been available for years. My point like all brands fake Mopars exist, especially with the values they bring.

Regarding your example of LS6's most have buildsheets or data cards validating original build equipment components. Yes these can be faked as well. Another point is if you are purchasing a car due your diligence and hire an expert to inspect the car. Many cars have known histories. If you truly want a no excuse car you need to do research and if you have limited knowledge hire someone reputable.

Finally, for me I am only interested in no excuse cars with born drivetrain, real docs and original as possible. Although paperwork is important, I still own cars with no paperwork, but Vin, Trim and Components are validated and are real as rain.

The entire dash Vin tag has been reproduced on some mopars. Some are very good and some.are.ez to spot.

[daveg]

Gottit on the fakers bit.
My bad.

Will go lay by my dish for penance.

[Hawkeye]

Welcome to the site. I would like to see as many details as possible and history on your Chevelle.
Thanks,
Marty