RESTAMPS R US...come get your restamped parts

[737Driver]

Eric,

I am happy you are the way you are and as long as I can afford it I will buy from people like you. The truth is, people have and will continue to buy fraudulent cars and parts. They will learn a painful lesson and most likely become a better buyer thereafter. Judges will try to stay on top of what is right and wrong so proper deductions and credits can be received. John Pirkle educated me on what is wrong with the current crop of very, very well done restamped alternators so, for now, I can see the reproductions.

Selling a well done reproduction as a reproduction is, in my opinion, completely acceptable. I don't think I need to say what it is when a reproduction is sold to an unsuspecting buyer as original. I think we all agree on what is morally right and wrong. I do believe it is wrong for any of us to say that anyone who buys these products is not worthy to be in this hobby or that they should somehow not be as welcomed as the all original 1.6 mile red/red climate controlled still on MSO ZL1 owner. I just believe there is room for everyone without any mudslinging.

Respectfully,

Mark

[VintageMusclecar]

Mark;

Allow me to preface this by stating that my replies are not directed at you, but moreso the indistry in general.

That being said...

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Eric,

I am happy you are the way you are and as long as I can afford it I will buy from people like you.

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Thank you, I sincerely appreciate that.

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The truth is, people have and will continue to buy fraudulent cars and parts. They will learn a painful lesson and most likely become a better buyer thereafter.

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I agree. However, that doesn't mean I will turn a blind eye to it or become apathetic and chalk it up to "s*hit happens" if I can help keep someone from getting burned.

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Judges will try to stay on top of what is right and wrong so proper deductions and credits can be received.

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but hasn't the restamping issue gotten so bad that even the high-zoot Corvette crowd has essentially given up on trying to decide what's real and what isn't?

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John Pirkle educated me on what is wrong with the current crop of very, very well done restamped alternators so, for now, I can see the reproductions.

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If I ever get the chance to meet Mr. Pirkle, I will gladly buy him at least one of his favorite beverages. I am glad that there are people out there who have the ability (perhaps more accurately stated, "luxury") of exposing fraud. Unfortunately for me, were I to ever do the same, I would <u>instantly</u> be blacklisted in the business.

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Selling a well done reproduction as a reproduction is, in my opinion, completely acceptable.

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I agree, as long as someone else down the line doesn't try to pass a restamp off as the real deal. As far as that goes, I'll bet my bottom dollar that that's exactly what happens more often than not. Reality shows that it is impossible to have one without the other. Greed is an ugly, but powerful driving force.

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think I need to say what it is when a reproduction is sold to an unsuspecting buyer as original. I think we all agree on what is morally right and wrong. I do believe it is wrong for any of us to say that anyone who buys these products is not worthy to be in this hobby or that they should somehow not be as welcomed as the all original 1.6 mile red/red climate controlled still on MSO ZL1 owner. I just believe there is room for everyone without any mudslinging.

Respectfully,

Mark

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Again, I agree, but the fact still remains, no matter how hard we might try to "nice it up", fraud is fraud. I haven't the slightest issue with someone who buys a restamped part for their car, that's entirely their business. What I DO have an issue with is the people who intentionally try to screw someone else over by trying to pass the restamped items off as the real thing.

When I see someone who's stamped a date code into one of the new release Holley carbs and puts it up on an internet auction site with a carefully worded ad description that fails to <u>clearly disclose</u> that the carb is NOT an original unit, I call that fraud, period.

To me, this is no different than putting a bogus trim tag on a car, just on an obviously smaller scale (financially speaking, at least). If the car isn't a real COPO/Z28/ZL1/whatever, then what is the purpose of installing a trim tag to make the car something it isn't? Exactly WHO is the owner/seller trying to "fool"? They obviously aren't trying to fool themselves since they already know that a part (or the whole car, for that matter) is bogus. That only leaves one answer, and it's rather obvious.

Like I said, I'm obviously WAY too old-fashioned for my own good, especially in the line of work I'm in. I simply can not make peace with the issue in my own conscience.

I know I've lost a number of sales and restoration work because of my stand on this issue, but no matter what it might cost me, I will always be able to lay my head down at night with a clear conscience.

Believe it or not, I actually have a very easy solution to this whole matter, but it would never, <u>ever</u> fly for reasons which will be obvious in a moment; if no one has anything to "hide" by installing these restamped parts on their cars, then to show that, each and every restamped reproduction part should be clearly identified as such---say, a big "R" stamped on it in a completely visible location. If no one has anything to hide and they have no intentions to pass a reproduction or restamped part off as the real thing later on down the road, then what would be the harm?

Want to install a repop trim tag on your car and you say you don't have anything to hide? Fine..then stamp a giant "R" right in the middle of it.

Same thing goes for a restamped carb...what's the harm in stamping a giant "R" right into the main body?

Or an alternator...a big "R" stamped just below the ID and date code.

You get the idea...

If there's nothing to hide, then there would be no harm in doing this, and it would certainly make it considerably more difficult for a "less honest" person to try to pass it off as the real thing later on down the road.

Kinda defeats the purpose of restamping a part, doesn't it?

Exactly.

Eric

[P.J.]

Erick I am with you. I am sure that this club will help others who ask for information as to the originality of a carb or alternator ect ect.If you are purchasing a numbers car do you homework.

PJ

[737Driver]

Eric,

My response is not to say that [censored] happens. That is not what I said and I hope that is not the way it came across, but, apparently to you, did. Are you going to eliminate unscrupulous people? How has that gone for you up to this point? To wipe out the repro market because some may choose to abuse it is, most likely, not realistic. Your intentions are admirable.

I don't know what 'high-zoot' means. It sounds like a back hand slap to Corvette people which is OK, but, to brand all people who own Corvettes is not wise. Corvette people are also, in many cases, Camaro as well as other brand people. They are good and decent folk just like the folk here. They have not given up on restamping and I would argue have led the way in knowledge and education in defending against it. Again, you may know more about us than I do.

As far as trim tags go, how have you determined that all reproduction trim tags are designed solely for fraud? It must be great to be in a postion to set back and cast moral judgements on cars and people, some that you have never met.

Listen, I do believe your intentions are good and admirable. I do, however, respectfully disagree with why some things are and whether the intentions are always black and white bad and fraudulent.

[WILMASBOYL78]

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Never been restamped....how about remanufactured?

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Sammy, I'm a survivor model....mostly original paint with a few touchups....driveline is born with...compression is still OK....shifter hangs up now and then....but it usually pops right back in to place with a little extra effort

Overall, good driver quality condition

wilma

[VintageMusclecar]

Mark;

I think we're going off in the wrong direction here; I wasn't trying to give you a hard time, and I was not casting moral judgements. I know you weren't trying to be dismissive in a "s**t happens" manner, that's why I prefaced my earlier reply the way I did.

As far as fake trim tags goes, let me put it this way: Hypothetically speaking, of course, what would be the purpose for someone to take a plain-Jane base model Camaro and stick on a tag in an attempt to pass it off as a Z28/COPO/whatever? In the simplest of terms, they are trying to make the car appear to be something it is not. So by doing so, who are they trying to fool? They obviously aren't trying to fool themselves since they know the car is a fake, that would be absurd. So, if they aren't trying to fool themselves, who are they trying to fool? Along those lines, can you give me one legitimate reason to install a fake trim tag on a car, other than to replace a lost/damaged/whatever original tag with a reproduction that is 100% identical to the cars original tag? Unless someone is trying to pass a car off as something its not, I can't come up with one other valid reason to do so. Even if someone were building a clone, what would be the harm in leaving the original base model trim tag on the car? If you answer "that will hurt the value of the car", then you've just proven my point that it's being done solely for financial reasons, and with a vested interest in decieving someone later on down the road with a fradulent tag. If it weren't, there would be absolutely no reason not to leave the original tag on, or as I previously suggested, stamping a repop tag with a big "R" right in the middle.

As far as passing moral judgements, let me again pose a hypothetical scenario; What if you were looking to buy a car, but you weren't aware that the cars trim tag was bogus? Let's say I was standing right there with you, looking at the car, and I spotted the bogus tag, but I failed to inform you about it and let you drop $80K on a car that's only worth $20K. Which action would've been more "moral" on my part...to let you get taken, or to speak up and try to warn you first? To a lesser degree, what if you were about to drop $1K on a restamped carb that's only worth $600.00, and again, even though I knew it was a restamp, I failed to warn you? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and take a wild guess that you wouldn't be too happy with me if I'd stood by and said nothing in either scenario.

I'll spell out my motives in plain English for anyone who cares to read them: I have absolutely no vested interests to promote, and I am not in the least bit interested in casting moral judgements on anyone. What I AM interested in is trying to protect (what is left of) the integrity of this hobby (I use that term very loosely here, as we all know the term "business" would be much more accurate), and to try to help people from making costly mistakes if I can. If that makes me a bad person, or "morally judgemental", I guess I'll just have to live with that.

I know this is very difficult to belive in todays world, but even as a businessman, I honestly have the buyers best interests in mind.

That being said, if we still disagree, then its mutually respectably. I have nothing further to add, I've spoken my peace on the subject and I am done.

Eric

p.s. forgot to add, re: the term "high zoot", that is just a term used to describe something on the higher-end of the spectrum in regards to value or rarity, and is not derogatory in any fashion.

[737Driver]

Eric,

That is the one valid reason I would come up with for putting a reproduction tag on a car...to replace an original in the original configuration. I think we agree.

As for 'high-zoot' I had never heard it and it sounded kinda bad, but, it isn't so...I'm a high-zoot and I like it.

In the end, I respect your opinion.

Peace,

Mark

[Verne_Frantz]

"how have you determined that all reproduction trim tags are designed solely for fraud?"

There is NO "legitimate" reason for changing a cowl tag on ANY car! I do not consider the cowl tag to be just another restoration part of the car.

I know of a finely restored '64 Biscayne that was so rotted on top of its cowl that the tag was almost half eaten away by corrosion. The owner cleaned the original tag and reinstalled it after restoration. IT cost him ONE POINT at a national show. AND it earned the respect of everyone who saw the car and realized that the restoration was accurate to the information on the tag, not vice-versa. That added more "value" to the car, especially in the intrinsic sense because if it had been a brand new tag, all bets would have been off as to the rest of the equipment on the car. Doubts in everyone's minds.

Eric could not have echoed my thoughts more succinctly regarding the ethics of this hobby. I am absolutely unwavering on the concept of changing cowl tags. As I stated, there is NO legitimate reason to do so on ANY car. Some are lucky to have survived perfectly, and some are not. That's just the way it is. That's part of the history if the car. We (none of us) should be allowed to change history for the future. We can only preserve it or destroy it.

Verne

[Salvatore]

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Never been restamped....how about remanufactured?

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Sammy, I'm a survivor model....mostly original paint with a few touchups....driveline is born with...compression is still OK....shifter hangs up now and then....but it usually pops right back in to place with a little extra effort

Overall, good driver quality condition

wilma

[/ QUOTE ]With all that quality, you STILL can't make it to any of the shows!!

[737Driver]

What about changing a trim that has been fraudulently changed from the original configuration back to its original configuration? What about taking a fraudulent trim tag that had been changed from green to red back to the original green? What about changing a known fraudulent trim tag back to its original configuration, even if it is less desireable? Isn't that more honest than a known fraudulent tag as long as it is disclosed?