Royal info wanted

[Bobcat]

Well your story is pretty close. A few corrections are in order. 1) There were two Ace's Jr. and Sr. 2) Sr. bought the dealership to give Jr. something to do. 3) Jim Wangers sold an idea to Estes and Delorean on a high perforamce dealership program. He was given the OK to find just one to start. Packer Ponttiac was very interested. But Bill Packer Jr. was leaving town for the weekend and would get back with Jim on Monday. While heaading back to his office Jim made one more stop. Royal Pontiac. Ace Jr. loved the idea and woulid not let Jim leave until a deal was set in stone.Side note Ace Sr hated it. Deal made. Bill Packer was more than a little upset. Packer after all was one of Pontiac's largest dealers with three stores. Detroit, Flint and Miami, FL. 4) The Royal racing program began with the '59 Catalina which was set up as a test bed. It had all of the latest including an Isky cam with a Pontiac part number. Unfortunately, while waiting in the pits at Detroit Dragway for the begining of the races, Bill Sidwell, against Jim Wangers' wishs took the Royal car out onto Dix Hwy with a couple of freinds and rolled the car. Bill was removed form the driving chores. The car was repaired but not until the 1960 race season. For 1960 Royal had three cars. 2 '60's, one automantic driven by Winston "Win" Brown and the stick car driven by Jim Wangers. A Pete Seaton entry racing through Royal was also in the finals. The Racing proram was Pontiac back door to the public. 5)As for all factory only parts that's not true. Inital Royal sold Isky cams with Pontiac part numbers. Royal Pontiac published three "Royal Story" parts books. 1962, 1963 and 1968. These where given out at Royals open houses. 2) Royal began marketing a Bobcat Kit in and a Bobcat dealer built car in 1961. Frank Rediker, while not an employee of the Dealership, had developed the kit and was the head mechanic on the race team. 6) the reason the cars had window stickers on the was because they were later sold as used cars. The cars however had the original engines removed and placed on a pallet and a rac motor was put into the car. At the end of the season the paint was stripped and repainted and the race motors pulled and the original motor replaced in the car. Less hassel and warranty issues. That's why it's hard to varify a Royal car. 7) Royal was hardly an outlaw dealership. They prepared almost all of the magazine Pontiac test cars so as not to embarrass the division with the cars performance. YES, the cars were more than plain jean stockers. Remember this was the back door to the public. Bottom line was to sell cars at all costs.8) A few Royal affiliates would not only hit the local tracks. They were constantly doing "market research" on the streets of Detroit. Royal was only a few blocks off Woodward Ave. Jim Wangers was always on hand with more than a few "hot" Pontiacs. 9) Royal formed a mail order business called the "Royal Racing Team" in 1962/1963. You could join for a couple of bucks and get discounts on Royal Pontiac parts. The mail order business hit it's peak in 1966 with the "Geeto Tiger" program. Over 5,000 members by the time the dealership was sold in 1969. The story goes alot deeper than the story book you just bought. Unfortunately there is a past, glorified porter, from Royal that is constantly resurfacing. I read he calims to have invented Royal and the Ram Air program. This guy wasn't even a line mechanic. Whenever Royal sent him out with another Royal Employee or even "Doc" Watson, this guy couldn't even post as fast a time. The magazines bare this out. The Royal Story keeps getting better and better. There was always a close working relationship with Royal Pontiac and the corp. while Knudson, Estes, Delorean and Wangers where there. Knudson went onto Ford and took his freinds and business partners, Mickey Thompson and Smokey Yunick with him. Delorean went on to Chevrolet and Wangers went onto Hurst than his to own Chevy Dealership in Wisconsin. Sad, very sad.

[jfkheat]

What I posted was quoted word for word from the book I have. I am not familar with the Royal race history. I was just trying to supply what little info I had for someone that asked for Royal info. I will try to scan some pages from the book when I get a chance. All the pictures look like they pages from the brochures.
James

[Bobcat]

Sorry, I get a little carried away, too much information,LOL

[Belair62]

I like reading it....how dod you gather this type of info hmmm ?

[flash]

to everyone that tried to answer this question,user( bobcat ) came the closest to reality, and seems to have the history nailed except the porter story. the porters that washed and primped the cars in those events worked for the promoters just like the gate and litter crews. at any given time the bobcat and hot chiefs had a group with the cars but that would have been wangers the tech center guys and a few of the wrenches from the dealership, but never a porter. Ace sr. was more worried that ace jr. was going to kill himself with his fast toys, than about the race program. royal pontiac produced its last hot car in 1976 a black grand prix with jade green pinstripes. the dealership was sold to al shaffo the same year he defaulted after six months and the dealership was then sold to jim fresard.there are many firebirds,gto, lemans, and grand prix cars out there with some H.O. stuff and special paint that no one seems to remember but they were hard to miss in a crowd. royal raced in many events from the 50s to the 70s including pikes peak hill climbing... well that is enough for now... I would be interested in knowing how bobcat came to know so much about the royal team... but he is more accurate than all the books written.

[Steve_Hoog]

Flash

Bobcat was and still is right there with all the people involved, he still races one of the original hot Bobcat cars. I have found him to be one of the best assets for the Royal history. I think the porter comment was a sarcastic joke, in my opinion.

If you know anything about the 350 HO Firebird and interested in sharing, I would like to hear.

[Belair62]

Sounds like you were somewhat close to this action Bobcat...

[GOAT72]

Bobcat,
How can you refer to Mr. Schornack as a "glorified porter" and that he "claims to have invented Royal"?

In Steve Stratham's book, "GTO: The Great One" Schornack claims he wasn't even HIRED by Dick Jesse at Royal until 1963. He states that he beat the Royal cars at Detroit Dragway with his 1959 Catalina, and so an impressed Jesse offered him a job at Royal.
How could Schornack NOT even be a line mechanic at Royal when he was HIRED by performance manager Dick Jesse himself and worked 6-days a week doing Bobcat conversions?

Also, Schornack explains his involvement in the testing of the RA V in Florida -- with Mr. Wangers, among others. If Shornack was such a poor racer, then why was he even IN the '69 GTO? There are photos of him in Statham's book racing the crystal turquoise '69 GTO with the RA IV -- which they later installed a Ram Air V into. Who put the RA V into the car... Mr. Wangers... or Schornack.

I am not biased in your Wangers Vs. Schornack mud-throw. I think BOTH men made their own contributions toward the legacy, but to completely denounce Schornack's involvement is wrong.
Please feel free to access miltschornack.com and click on his RA V page-- Schornack bought one of the factory RA Vs.
How'd he pull THAT deal off with no involement with PMD?
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I am sure you'll have the fortitude to answer: Where did you get this information from? Were you THERE? Did you know George DeLorean? Schornack? The Wilsons? Dick Jesse?

If so, this would put you in the late 60s-early 70's age-bracket, which I don't think is the case.

Finally, I have located a guy who is providing me with photocopies of dozens of old magazine articles concerning Schornack; you have piqued my interest with your debasing attitude toward this individual.

Thanks for any help you can provide with your answer.

~GOAT72
(newbie)

Bobcat said:
<i>Unfortunately there is a past, glorified porter, from Royal that is constantly resurfacing. I read he calims to have invented Royal and the Ram Air program. This guy wasn't even a line mechanic. Whenever Royal sent him out with another Royal Employee or even "Doc" Watson, this guy couldn't even post as fast a time. The magazines bare this out. The Royal Story keeps getting better and better.</i>

[JLP]

The pics I sent Jeffh here contain pics of Milt driving the RA V car and there are other pics of him around/working on the car. Can't seem to shrink them. I can e-mail them or contact Jeffh on this site. Here is pix of '69 FB he was driving for Royal also. Beautiful Orange/white car. Black & white only photos.

[JLP]

Same car front view.