Interesting spin on old cars

[Derek69SS]

Originally Posted by bdk1976

Fewer kids are interested in cars/driving these days, and ones that are interested in old cars and driving them are a miniscule subset of those.

My observation is that more kids are interested in cars today than 20 years ago. The recent musclecar wars have fueled a new generation of car enthusiasts.

Originally Posted by LetsFNgo

Most people my generation(millennial) don’t care about old cars.

I'm a Millenial too (1982). Our generation had a big disadvantage in that we were too young to get any good performance parts in the junkyards and too old to get into the cheap LS/turbo stuff in our youth.

When we were 16-25, if you got a junkyard 350 or 454 it was a low compression, cast piston, weak rod, junk head engine that took a hefty machine shop bill and a lot of aftermarket parts to turn it into anything reasonably high-performance. LS stuff was still new and expensive.

The LS/turbo or just cammed LS stuff has brought hotrodding back to the young guys building high performance cars out of junkyard parts. I know more under-30 car guys than 30-45yo car guys because they grew up with real performance engines being attainable at home. They're not doing stuff with musclecars because of the economics, not because they're not interested.

The LS engine has brought back the junkyard hotrodder like how it started with the Flatheads.

[TK-65]

Zolper is a hard watch. Tons of negativity and a know it all persona. But that's what sells on social media.


The hobby is as strong as it ever has been. Car culture is generational, like fashion and music. Once you reach a certain age one tends to yearn for their youth. The true car hobbyist doesn't live in an era, he can appreciate everything and enjoy everything without trying to relive a past. That guy will always be in the minority. So cars will always have value.


Gen X is coming on strong with values of Fox Mustangs, Turbo Buicks and surprisingly 3rd Gen Camaros. Fox cars have sold for over 200,000 recently. Collectors want the Cobras and others want the car they couldn't afford in high school. Thats the same formula that drove the first muscle car boom in the late 80s.


BTW a 1979 Mustang Pace car is 46 years old. The last "Fox Body" is 32 years old. They are now well into collector car territory. And they are hot.

[William]

I have no idea why this surprises people. The car hobby has always been generational. Baby Boomers were the largest generation of modern times and collected old muscle in big numbers. Successive generations are much smaller, less involved with things automotive. Those that are collect what they drove in their youth-Trans Ams, Acura Integras, Toyota Supras, Nissans. And trucks.

The law of supply and demand is irrefutable. Father Time always wins.

[Derek69SS]

I'm also into Model T's, so I have watched a bit of what the sunsetting of the hobby looks like. People have been predicting the death of the Model T hobby since the 70s. I'd say it peaked between 2000 and 2010. With some exceptions, the decline in value has really just been inflationary. A car worth $10k 20 years ago is still worth $10k today. They really haven't dropped in price, just haven't kept up with the decline of the dollar.

The big problem in recent years has been parts availability. The T hobby was well supported by many boutique shops making aftermarket parts run by people in the hobby, not corporate entities producing parts in China. This was great for a long time, until they started aging out of being able to produce the parts, and unable to sell the business because everyone else in the business was at an age they wanted to reduce their workload, not add to it.

Musclecars are different, though. They can be driven with modern traffic, even in completely stock form. They'll never be as inconvenient to use as earlier cars. A bone-stock Chevelle could be daily-driven comfortably, and actually handle reasonably well with just tires/sway bars/steering box upgrades. People using the earlier cars as an example of declining interest are forgetting how badly most of the cars up into the 50s drive.

Another factor is dillution of the hobby... An enthusiast today has 120+ years of cars to choose from.

There's a million ways this can go, but I don't think the hobby will crash or die any time soon. Becoming more affordable for the next generations isn't a bad thing.

[Steve Shauger]

Originally Posted by Derek69SS

I'm also into Model T's, so I have watched a bit of what the sunsetting of the hobby looks like. People have been predicting the death of the Model T hobby since the 70s. I'd say it peaked between 2000 and 2010. With some exceptions, the decline in value has really just been inflationary. A car worth $10k 20 years ago is still worth $10k today. They really haven't dropped in price, just haven't kept up with the decline of the dollar.

The big problem in recent years has been parts availability. The T hobby was well supported by many boutique shops making aftermarket parts run by people in the hobby, not corporate entities producing parts in China. This was great for a long time, until they started aging out of being able to produce the parts, and unable to sell the business because everyone else in the business was at an age they wanted to reduce their workload, not add to it.

Musclecars are different, though. They can be driven with modern traffic, even in completely stock form. They'll never be as inconvenient to use as earlier cars. A bone-stock Chevelle could be daily-driven comfortably, and actually handle reasonably well with just tires/sway bars/steering box upgrades. People using the earlier cars as an example of declining interest are forgetting how badly most of the cars up into the 50s drive.

Another factor is dillution of the hobby... An enthusiast today has 120+ years of cars to choose from.

There's a million ways this can go, but I don't think the hobby will crash or die any time soon. Becoming more affordable for the next generations isn't a bad thing.

I agree with your summation. People have been predicting the collapse of musclecar market for years. If you love your cars, enjoy and drive them who cares. If they are investments to you then follow the market trends and make financial decisions based on your needs.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Derek69SS

I'm also into Model T's, so I have watched a bit of what the sunsetting of the hobby looks like. People have been predicting the death of the Model T hobby since the 70s. I'd say it peaked between 2000 and 2010. With some exceptions, the decline in value has really just been inflationary. A car worth $10k 20 years ago is still worth $10k today. They really haven't dropped in price, just haven't kept up with the decline of the dollar.

The big problem in recent years has been parts availability. The T hobby was well supported by many boutique shops making aftermarket parts run by people in the hobby, not corporate entities producing parts in China. This was great for a long time, until they started aging out of being able to produce the parts, and unable to sell the business because everyone else in the business was at an age they wanted to reduce their workload, not add to it.

Musclecars are different, though. They can be driven with modern traffic, even in completely stock form. They'll never be as inconvenient to use as earlier cars. A bone-stock Chevelle could be daily-driven comfortably, and actually handle reasonably well with just tires/sway bars/steering box upgrades. People using the earlier cars as an example of declining interest are forgetting how badly most of the cars up into the 50s drive.

Another factor is dillution of the hobby... An enthusiast today has 120+ years of cars to choose from.

There's a million ways this can go, but I don't think the hobby will crash or die any time soon. Becoming more affordable for the next generations isn't a bad thing.

I made this transition myself.

From '31 Ford Model A to '63 Grand Prix.

Wanted to modernize the fleet a bit.

K

[LetsFNgo]

He is 100% right in most respects(in my opinion). Most people my generation(millennial) don’t care about old cars. They want cool stuff from the 80’s and 90’s, if they’re interested in cars beyond being appliances. They respect the muscle car stuff, but aren’t willing to spend the money on stuff to get heavily involved. Mainly because in the last 20 years prices on white trash fun muscle car stuff has exploded.

I didn’t get into AMC stuff because I loved it from a young age. I got into AMC because they’re the only manufacturer left of the muscle car era where prices haven’t gone crazy. And even that isn’t entirely true. I had to spend 3,000 dollars on a tunnel ram because so few amc tunnel rams were ever manufactured, and baby boomers have hoarded stuff being unwilling to sell and now think everything they held onto had gained in value.

I have nothing but respect for past generations holding onto this stuff when it was just fun cars that sounded cool. But now everyone sees dollar signs. I think certain stuff will always have value, but overall I look forward to prices dropping and being able to pick up fun stuff for cheap.

Also worth noting, if you want your kids involved in the stuff, keep them around and a part of it. I’m sure it’s not guaranteed, and if my young son ends up not liking the cars, eventually at least one will be his to sell or do what he wants with. But I can’t force him to like it. And at a bare minimum, he has cool photos to see from when he was young.

[Pro Stock John]

I assume that the very old car community has become niche. I know a mechanic in the Chicago suburbs who can work on Model Ts and all the way up to 70s muscle cars, and he's the only one I can think of who could do a tune up and brakes on a car built in the 20s.

Based on prices I think 60s-70s muscle cars are holding value just fine.

[daveg]

Pretty much agree with most but some points to make

The speech this is about is what I would call a "glass is half empty" attitude in the extreme.

I am definitely a "glass is half full" attitude in the extreme.
Mid boomer here

Derek covered model T so I will start at model A'

Never owned one but friends did.
They fell off the pedestal long ago but like the model t still had a following so price receded but did not totally collapse.

I started with a 36 Ford 5w coups at 13.
Switched to 33- 34 cars and still have some.
They have gone through many up and down cycles in price but still can bring high prices.
Definitely not what they did 1995 through 2005 but not totally collapsed.

In the mid 70's it was not hard to buy a running driving ss396 Chevelle for $200 in MPLS MN. Camaro 396 cars were less common but could be found.
Had a mess of them

Drifted into Hemi Mopar's in 83- 84 and started buying them.
Paid $7,500 for first one.
The 66 Coronet black 4spd sedan with 7,100 miles on it i have posted here'
It was at MCACAN last year. [not mine since 1993]
Word got around a crazy guy in MPLS would pay $5,000 cash for a reasonably complete Hemi car and they started finding me. Had 18 of them.

Along came summer 1989 and I had my 70 Challenger RT at 'DODGE of BURNSVILLE' show swap.
Had made a hitch that bolted to the tie down brackets and another existing hole on each side.
Did no harm to car.
Pulled my small swap meet trailer with it as I had much surplus stuff from buying parts cars to get dana 60's and hd 4spds etc.
That was right at the time these cars went crazy the first time and my first glimpse of it. Some thought pulling a swap trailer with a 14,000 mile factory paint 70 Hemi Challenger was a hoot, and some were really pissed about it.
A few have hated me since.
Fred Engelhardt was one spot down from me.
A buddy with an unrestored 70 superbird 6pack auto with hitch and trailer was next to me.
He got pretty much the same reaction I did.

Fred and I knew each other so he looked the Challenger over numerous times.
People asked for price on it so many times I taped a big sign in back window
"car is not for sale"
That slowed it some but did not stop it though.
Bruce Gertner was asking about it also.

Went home and that evening Fred and Bruce both called with Fred being the most aggressive.
He said he would be at my house the next morning with $50,000 cash.
He showed up next morning as I was finishing removal of the hillbilly hitch and putting the spare parts for it in trunk.
He sold it to Bruce the next day.
I had bought it in Feb 89 for $8,000

Decided it was time to buy land, so most cars left.

That started in 1989 but by 1993 the market had settled way down.
Heard much talk of "collector cars are dead"

Actually, advertised the Boss 429 in Hemmings back in the dark years and did not get a response at $40,000.
Twice what I paid for it in 1986.

Pretty much did nothing with cars but happened to watch parts of the Feb 2002 auction in Az and saw cars were alive again.
Red 66 ss396 325 4spd Chevelle brought $125,000.
Nice car but!!

Along comes 2006 and I get a call from Fred Engelhardt. He had someone looking for an honest 69 Boss 429 and had seen mine on several occasions. Car market was obviously very hot as he offered a lot for the car and he got it. Bought more land like I did with the earlier ones.

Also familiar with collecting old 2 cyl JD tractors.
They peaked around 2006 also.

Most know what happen a few years later and it is still sputtering some.

Point is it goes up and it goes down and it goes up and down again.
Seems to be a somewhat firm bottom to it though.
I view it as a cycle repeating itself.

When I was selling off the Hemi Mopar's I added 295 acres in one chunk to my back yard.
Jan 1993 at $254.00 per acre.
Feb 1995 160 acre addition at $310.00 per acre

I do not think all is dead now any more than at low points in past.
We simply buy what is down and that is why we are adding cars to the shed.
Bought a decent 24,000-mile L78 M22 69 Chevelle [OLE BLUE] in 2022
Paid $42,278 on epay.
Do not know if that has gone up or down but do not care.
It was not bought for resale.
Son loves it so it is not going the junk it route the video guy hypes.

For sure cannot buy land around here for anything other than nutso prices now.

[Derek69SS]

Originally Posted by daveg

Bruce Gertner was asking about it also.

I probably saw it when Bruce had it, but I turned 7 years old in 1989, so I really don't remember seeing a Challenger. Bruce lived on the farm my Dad grew up on, about half a mile from the farm where I grew up.

He had a custom painted orange and white 2-tone Hemi/4spd Superbird around that same time. (maybe that was owned by Norb?) That was the first winged car I ever saw.