1970 gto judge ram air IV

[tjs44]

Just talked to Pete about the V cars,he had a conversation a couple weeks ago with Jim Wangers and he said there were NO RA V cars shipped from the factory.The test car was a RAIV car in Fla.They shipped a complete RAV engine with exhaust manifolds with the car,with instructions to pull the engine after the test and return it to the factory which it was.There are many pontiac "GURUs" that have been telling SO many lies for SO long they now believe them a fact.Bill,Milt and Jess are a few of those guys.Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

Did you ask Pete why he has nothing in his book concerning Knafel?

And exactly what is it that removes him from "GURU" status?

[sixtiesmuscle]

I received a lead from a broker, and, bought the car from Arlen Vanke. I got it in the condition you can see on Micky Hale's website. Arlen rebuilt the motor for me, and, I never checked the casting numbers until I had it delivered to Micky's shop. I assumed it was the engine that was in it when it raced because that's what Arlen told me. The block is a RA V, and, it has RA IV heads. That's all I know, and, I don't really care where or when the engine was originally installed. If these cars were Nickeys, Yenkos, or Baldwin Motion cars, the fact that they were converted for racing at the leading hi po dealership would be a GOOD thing. As evidence of this, if I'm not mistaken, the highest value paid for a Yenko Camaro , at the time at least, was for Brian's yellow car which had the original 427 removed, and, a race motor installed at Yenko.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Regarding the lack of Knafel info in Pete's book, there was never any love lost between Knafel & Wangers. I think that's putting it politically correct. Pete & Wangers are buddies. Pretty simple really. The rivalry between Royal/Wangers and Knafel was intense, and, never really subsided. Any other opinions on this one?

Hey, where's DaJudge?? Hopefully you've reread my posts. I'm ready for that apology now.

[supergonzo]

There NEVER were any RAV motors installed from Pontiac into ANY cars sold at a dealership period.

They were racing "parts" motors that you had to complete yourself. There was one "test" car which originally had a RAIV in it. The RAV would have needed the bigger cubic inches of 1970 (455+) to be even close to streetable.
Too much head flow. There are some who are still racing these motors today into the 9's.

[DaJudge]

Mike, My point regarding shutting up was meant to be that if I had a Camaro that was represented as a Baldwin Motion Car and did not have the proper paperwork to document the vehicle people would doubt it's legitimacy no matter who verbally verified the car. Now on to the Ram Air V GTO I have seen other GTO's with the same memo and they were not RA V cars. As I have stated before the car is no slouch it's a RA IV car that is rare. I believe 1 of 804 in which there were 325 RA IV Judge hardtop 4 speeds. If Knafel Pontiac put the RA V in the car at the dealership that is way cool as well. That's as close to a Motion or Nickey car that us Pontiac guys have. My only point is that unless there is a buildsheet or definitive documentation from Pontiac not just word of mouth then no one can really say that the engine was installed at the factory. Another point is that the RA V block casting number is totally different from any 400 motor. Mike will a few drinks on me suffice as an apology? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Steved: my cars are not race cars I never said they were faster then yours and I will not thrash numbers matching vehicles just to prove anything to you. They are show cars that have intact drivelines from when they were new why would I want to risk ruining them. They were run once for fun before they were restored and that's it.

The one thing we all have in common is a love for these old cars and when a debate like this draws all this attention from various people all over the coutry, it makes me feel good that this hobby and the passion for these cars will live on long after we are all gone.

I just find it very interesting that Pontiac documented all the VIN's of the early Super Duty cars that Harrop, Beswick and others took delivery of, raced and won National events with. They even had every VIN for 70 TA's with RA IV's in them broken down by time built, 4 speed vs. auto, as well as blue vs. white cars and the plant in which they were produced. Why then not these two cars?

These are two great cars no matter what the case is.

Mike [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/[/img]

[olredalert]

------TJS44s statement about the car getting shipped with a seperate RAV engine w/exaust manifolds is probably the closest thing we will ever have to the truth regarding this entire discussion!When you think about it,why would Pontiac risk a fine of whatever amount and deliver a non-compliant car when they could deliver the motor seperatly and avoid that whole scenario.This makes a bunch of sense to me,however the old "anything could happen"adage does have to be kept in mind when dealing with GM............Bill S

[sixtiesmuscle]

Mike, Now, that was a reasonable explanation, and, it's nice to see this back in a civil tone. However, what you're missing is that I NEVER STATED THAT MY CAR WAS A RA V FROM THE FACTORY! Therefor, I don't have to put up or "shut up", as far as documenting anything but what the car IS. I do enough things I'm guilty of, I sure don't need to be accused of things I don't do.

BTW I don't drink, so, can you just send me 20 bucks. Mike

[LVCamaro]

Get 'em, Mike G! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

SS

[skierkaj]

I'm sorry, but I just have to say something to DaJudge. Cars are meant to be driven, not trailered, no matter how precious, pristine or rare they are. If you don't drive the car, you're defeating the whole point of owning it. If I had a car somewhat like any of yours, I'd make a point of driving it. If the car was only one of one made, you'd find me driving it. Cars can be replaced and relived, awesome lifetime experiences cannot. I don't know how the rest of you feel, but that's my opinion. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]