69 Camaro X22

[Crush]

Kurt...

[Lynn]

Just from what Kurt and Mike posted, I think I can answer most of the questions Phil asked:

1. Is this a fake body plate?
Yes. Kurt called it a repro. Mike called it a repop. That means a plate produced after the fact (most likely by Trimtags.com).

2. Is it a repop body plate?
Yes. Just a matter of semantics. Personally, I think terms "repop" and "repro" or even "reproduction" are too mild as descriptive terms regarding a plate that has been produced after the fact that is not original to the car. I always refer to it as a fake. But that's just me. I always know when Kurt uses the term "repro" exactly what he means.

3. Is there an issue with the line up of the VIN against the fisher body number on the body plate?
Not sure, but I doubt it. Most of the fake tags use the same ident number that was on the real tag. I could be wrong on this, but virtually every fake tag I have had any experience with used the same number as the real tag it replaced.

4. Was the plate switched from a real car onto the hulk?
No, or it would have been referred to as a "swapped tag", and not a repro or repop tag.

[70 copo]

While I appreciate the demonstration in Apologetics I am well aware of the reasons that Lynn posted above.

However I am not the one out on a limb here stating conclusively that the body plate included with the auction creates a fraudulent looking sale.

Guys to be fair If I offer an opinion or the Norwood Retirees offer an opinion we are subjected to the virtual colonoscopy by a few of the aligned members of another forum.

-----------

So the question remains: Why is it a repop?

Is it the font?
The size and the shape variation of the embossment?

Cut us all in here.. or perhaps given the relative statistically small percentage of body plates in the CRG data base as compared to 1969 production -there may be some uncertainty as to the strength of the reproduction argument?

And there is the potential that I already know the guy who ran the embossing machine for Fisher Body at Norwood.. .

I think offering an informed opinion is a vastly safer position to take when you were not there and do not have first hand knowledge that you are willing to share

Framing a discussion as an informed opinion becomes critical when you will not state the basis for a hard claim.

[scuncio]

The point is simple - there is no need to share this in a public forum. The CRG doesn’t get paid to appraise old Camaros and there’s no financial incentive in it for them, so Kurt would have no reason to misrepresent something he felt confident enough about to state here.

Let’s watch what we say here so guys like Kurt continue to speak openly.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by 70 copo

While I appreciate the demonstration in Apologetics I am well aware of the reasons that Lynn posted above.

However I am not the one out on a limb here stating conclusively that the body plate included with the auction creates a fraudulent looking sale.

Guys to be fair If I offer an opinion or the Norwood Retirees offer an opinion we are subjected to the virtual colonoscopy by a few of the aligned members of another forum.

-----------

So the question remains: Why is it a repop?

Is it the font?
The size and the shape variation of the embossment?

Cut us all in here.. or perhaps given the relative statistically small percentage of body plates in the CRG data base as compared to 1969 production -there may be some uncertainty as to the strength of the reproduction argument?

And there is the potential that I already know the guy who ran the embossing machine for Fisher Body at Norwood.. .

I think offering an informed opinion is a vastly safer position to take when you were not there and do not have first hand knowledge that you are willing to share

Framing a discussion as an informed opinion becomes critical when you will not state the basis for a hard claim.

If that is what you REALLY wanted to know, why didn't you ask that question instead of the other four questions; especially considering you were already well aware of the answers and the reasons for the answers.

I think it is perfectly logical for Kurt and Mike NOT to disclose too much info on a public forum. You don't think that it is logical. We can disagree. I appreciate what they are doing for the hobby, just like I appreciate things you have done for the hobby. It doesn't need to be a pissing match.


As for this statement, I have no idea what you are driving at: "I think offering an informed opinion is a vastly safer position to take when you were not there and do not have first hand knowledge that you are willing to share."

One didn't have to be there in 1969 to spot a fake tag made in 2015 (or whatever year). Go do some reading on Team Camaro. Fifteen years ago, the fake tags were so bad, that anyone with better than 20 40 vision could spot it. Guys kept calling out the fakes and pointing out problems with them. What happened? They got better and better. "Being there" in 1969 has nothing to do with it.

[Steve Shauger]

Phil (70 copo), I don't like the tone your taking with respect, or lack thereof to our members. I have gotten several complaints and it's not from the members you have literally called out in the thread. Please refrain continuing this nonsensical behavior!


Chris Slawski- regarding the tag:
Standard operating procedure is not to identify specifics characteristics which identify fraudulent trim tag or stampings. It is my opinion that detailing the errors will only assist the fraudsters'.

I can tell you with certainty it is a repop. Take the time to look at others tags that are known to be real and it will be obvious. The companies repopping these are catching on because of the information we inadvertently pass along trying to help fellow hobbyist.

[70 copo]

Originally Posted by Steve Shauger

Phil (70 copo), I don't like the tone your taking with respect, or lack thereof to our members. I have gotten several complaints and it's not from the members you have literally called out in the thread. Please refrain continuing this nonsensical behavior!.

Please Steve calm down. I never worked at Norwood a day in my life. What I did was meet the men who built the cars and to prove that I take them to car shows all over the country to meet the public and the hobby.

Several years ago after I assisted Pilot Car registry and documented Camaro VIN 0001 I was banned from the CRG. The same issues that were present then are present now. If I posted at Team Camaro I was attacked there, now I am being attacked here at Yenko.net.

What we have here is an opportunity to learn. The Norwood Retiree who ran the machine says that there is nothing wrong with that body plate, and further opined that the plate was likely pressed right after a maintenance cycle on the machine.

You see Steve I broke no rules - insulted no one but I appear to be under some thin skin here by simply asking a question- a question coming from the guy who ran the plate embosser.

Now history is replete with beliefs and and science being rewritten due to new research and discovery. Sure there are lots of fake "Trim Tags" out there but please consider this-what if a percentage of these tags considered fake are actually legitimate and not recognized as such simply because some people jumped to conclusions as to what was "real".

Have we really closed our minds to learning new things about our cars?

Think about that for a minute.

[Steve Shauger]

Originally Posted by 70 copo

Please Steve calm down. I never worked at Norwood a day in my life. What I did was meet the men who built the cars and to prove that I take them to car shows all over the country to meet the public and the hobby.

Several years ago after I assisted Pilot Car registry and documented Camaro VIN 0001 I was banned from the CRG. The same issues that were present then are present now. If I posted at Team Camaro I was attacked there, now I am being attacked here at Yenko.net.

What we have here is an opportunity to learn. The Norwood Retiree who ran the machine says that there is nothing wrong with that body plate, and further opined that the plate was likely pressed right after a maintenance cycle on the machine.

You see Steve I broke no rules - insulted no one but I appear to be under some thin skin here by simply asking a question- a question coming from the guy who ran the plate embosser.

Now history is replete with beliefs and and science being rewritten due to new research and discovery. Sure there are lots of fake "Trim Tags" out there but please consider this-what if a percentage of these tags considered fake are actually legitimate and not recognized as such simply because some people jumped to conclusions as to what was "real".

Have we really closed our minds to learning new things about our cars?

Think about that for a minute.

Phil,


We agree on one thing "we were not there". I'm not sure why you constantly bring the factory workers into the discussions, yet you are their sole voice. Although we were not there, many of us have had a passion for these brands for 40 plus years and OUR observations and the data collected is vital to move this hobby forward so we can gain knowledge.


It seems to me you have a closed mind. For instance the fender extension marking discussion. You tried shut down the dialog (closed mind), rather that letting the observed fender data points provide information that would lead to a possible discovery (which it did). Instead you tried to make the markings fit your narrative, even though it was quite obvious you were trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.


Lastly, we all respect those GM workers that built the cars we love, and we are forever grateful for their contribution. I'd appreciate if when someone's opinion differs from yours, you wouldn't turn it into we are against those that built the cars. That couldn't be further from the truth, and you're doing them and our members a disservice to imply that!!!


In the end if you feel the tag is real that is fine, but don't try to silence those that feel different.

[outlawperformance]

It seems odd when someone makes a statement and someone wants some clarification everyone gets quiet and defensive. So who is really right at this point? I'm not stirring the pot just trying to understand why this is so secretive and why only a select view know or don't really know. We're all car guys just trying to understand and get smarter.

[Crush]

This is about as clear as can be stated why not share “ publicly”. I think it’s a fairly straightforward reason?

“The more information that is released as to "why" make it easier on the people who create these forgeries...Joe”