442 W-30 Documentation

[Scrooge]

Hello, all:

I am currently looking at a '70 442 W-30. The car is represented to be numbers-matching, but the seller has no protect-o-plate or build sheet. All of the W-30 specific equipment looks legit from the pics I've seen so far.

I am not very familiar with GM cars as I've only dealt with (and owned) Mopars. My questions are essentially as follows:

1. How important is the protect-o-plate in terms of authentication and valuation?
2. What is this item and is it different than a build sheet?
3. Do you know of any registries where I might verify this particular car's VIN as an authentic W-30?

Like I said, I am new to these cars and simply don't want to get burned. Thanks in advance for your help!

Matt
'70 'Cuda 440-6

[Belair62]

I don't think there is an authentication service like Pontiac but if you head over to www.442.com there may be some good info there for you on what to look for.

[442w30]

Despite my name, I'm no Olds expert. I'll try to tell you the best I can, however.

First off, why an Olds after a Mopar? And what's the deal with the one you're looking at? Colors? Tranny? Options? Bodystyle?

All W-30 were built in Lansing. However, non-W-30s were built there too, so it's a rule of thumb and nothing more.

Auto trannies had their own tranny code, which I think was OW. It was different from lesser 442s. Sticks? I think it was M21 only, which could have been shared with lesser 442s. Highest gear with TH400 was 3.23, stick 3.42.

I know stick cars had too much vacuum, so no AC for these cars, unlike TH400 cars. I also recall no power brakes, perhaps? That doesn't mean you can't have front discs - in fact, discs may have been standard with the W-30.

These things may not be a 100% solution, but they will help you figure it out. Of course, these things will be followed closely by those who want to commit fraud as well, but not everyone is smart enough for this.

I think your best bet is to go to v8buick.com and visit the Pure Stock and related rooms. There are people there who have been involved with this stuff for years. I know a few knowledgable people on the 442.com site (and realoldspower.com) but often there tends to be people who don't know what they're talking about. If you really want to play it safe, find a car with docs or get a '72 which has the engine in the VIN.

[Scrooge]

In response to 442w30:

I have always liked the cars and am not really partial to any particular brand (even though I have the 'Cuda), so I am constantly looking around for nice cars generally.

The one at which I am currently looking is a sun yellow four-speed coupe (not a post-coupe) with black interior. I like the color combo and I have not seen too many four-speeds around. I tend only to look at fully documented cars, so that is why I find the lack of a buildsheet on this one so disconcerting. I don't like to treat any of these cars as investments for profit, just as investments for fun, but there is something to be said for the role of documentation in the preservation of value.

BTW, the 442.com site initially loads, but then says that the page cannot be displayed. Is it just my computer that is causing problems?

Thanks for the help, all.

Matt
'70 'Cuda 440-6

[Ackman70]

If you provide me with some ID and casting numbers I can at least point you in the right direction. Without the build sheet there is no way to positively ID a W-30. Only educated guessing and simple deduction.

[retengw31]

Build sheets are definitely a great thing to have, but are rarely found in Lansing built Olds cars. They were supposed to be removed prior to shipping from the plant, but often got left there by a sloppy cleanup.

While the best documentation for originality, they're not the only means to verify a real car from another put together car. Checking numbers isn't always dead accurate either, but at least gives you a warm, fuzzy on the plus side. Few of these still have the original engines, so the car may actually be a real one w/o the numbers match/VIN match/date code match parts still on it.

Paperwork back to the original owner and a verification that there are no holes in its history (have seen that many times)can be just as reliable as a build sheet if thoroughly researched and verified.

I don't have a build sheet for my 68 Ramrod which I walked down the assy line in 1968, drove off, and have never parted with. I haven't pulled the gas tank as the car's never been restored so maybe there is one there. But the rest of the paperwork sure is in order. Doesn't matter, it'll never be for sale, though.

Caveat emptor, if anyone's loking to shell out big $$$ for these, the paperwork should be there and correct. They're easy to fake.

[Belair62]

Thanks Dave...if you want to send me some pics of your 68 Ram Rod and a write up we can feature it for you.

[JoeG]

Yeah Dave,--Us old guys would luv to see an original owner RAM ROD---

[StealthBird]

I think one of the most cloned Musclecars around has to be the 70-72 W-30 cars. Buyer beware, documentation is a must on these cars. I have seen numerous clones that are advertised as "numbers matching", but what some sellers mean is that the actual components match, but not to the car. Also beware any broker or "museum" that uses phrases like "442 with W-30 package", or "442 with W-30 option". Most knowledgeable dealers advertise these rare cars as "442 W-30", plain and simple.

Just got back from the Mecum auction, and saw a clone 72 W-30 convertible, created from a base Cutlass, sell for over $25,000. Quite insane considering the 350 4-barrel under the hood, but it sold. There was also a numbers matching 70 W-30 4-speed, Sebring Yellow with black stripes. The car seemed complete, but had some serious body and paint related problems. From the audience, it probably looked like a 98 point car, but it really needed a lot of work.

On W-30's, aside from what was mentioned above by 442w30 up above, you have to see documentation, preferably the original owner paperwork, to verify these cars nowadays. Lucky for us Pontiac guys, we have PHS, so fake GTO's or Trans Am's are next to impossible to sell as real deals, unless an unsuspecting buyer believes everything the owner tells them, and chooses to go with their gut instinct. More often than not, you'll get burned.

By the way, Mecum was a hornet's nest for 69 Yenko clones. I was amazed at what some sold for, even poorly done ones.

[retengw31]

Belair 62:

I'd shine shoes, do the windows, etc. etc. for anyone with a 62 bubble top. Here's a recent pic. Car is a regular in Pure Stock and F.A.S.T. Has run a best of 13.30 at 105 on Polyglas with manifolds. Drivetrain refresh in 2000, otherwise all original including paint and interior. Upcoming feature article in Musclecar Enthusiast and American Muscle Car on Speed channel.

Great site.

dave