Million dollar camaro....

[sixtiesmuscle]

How is the engineering department not part of the factory? How does having those special parts installed in the engineering department detract form its authenticity and/or value?

[Jeff H]

If the parts were installed on the assembly line then you could claim the car was built that way. But having those parts added after the car was already fully assembled would mean those parts are not original to the car. I think that's the difference that most people see with this particular car. This car has an interesting history to it and it gets really tough to describe or label the car.

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
The car then had the crossram, fiberglass hood and rear disc added in engineering or some department.

[/ QUOTE ] Since the assembly line wasn't building Z/28 converts and it came off the standard line and went to Engineering for special fitment how could you NOT call it factory built ? It wasn't even sent out to an outside shop to have things installed like a lot of factory drag cars.I have never really heard anyone question whether this was a factory built car.

[Jeff H]

The assembly line did build this Z28 conv and I believe it shows on the POP and I thought there was a window sticker too. But the crossram and rear disc brakes do not match the POP or window sticker. So that is not factory original. This is the way a lot of people view it. If you call this car factory original then anybody that bought over the counter parts has a factory original car because all the parts are original GM parts. You can call it a factory installed crossram, JL8 Z28 convert, but not factory original. I personally think there's a distinct difference. Factory original is how the car rolled off the assembly line, according to most classic car enthusiasts and experts. Again, this is a very special and unique car because of the original options and the added options. But the car was not built with those options and not sold with those options.

[Charley Lillard]

I thought William G said that the only paperwork was a hand written shipper copy ?

[Belair62]

Jim Mattison was up at the podium with the car....he held up a 6inch thick book of records and documents pertaining to the car....not sure what they consisted of...

[Allen]

[ QUOTE ]
If you call this car factory original then anybody that bought over the counter parts has a factory original car because all the parts are original GM parts......... But the car was not built with those options and not sold with those options.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not quite sure of your comparison, because I think there is a distinct difference between over-the-counter parts installed by anyone (general public) and those installed by GM engineers before a car is released for use.

If it was documented that engineering and the assembly plant combined their efforts to create a unique package for that executive, the car has a neat heritage and could/should be labeled a GM factory original. Whether the line assembler or an engineer installed the parts, if it was done and documented at GM before it was used, it's a factory original.

If it's known that they again modified it after Estes gave up the car, that just adds a twist to it. However, restoring it in the form that Estes originally received it stays with the spirit of their (GM engineering's) intentions to get the program approved and makes it that much more interesting and valuable.

[sixtiesmuscle]

"according to most classic car enthusiasts and experts"??? And YOU are speaking for them??? Maybe the guys YOU communicate with. I hate to get pissy, but, your whole position on this car really bugs me.

[Jeff H]

Geez, I guess my statement is that it is not an original JL8 crossram car. There is no such thing as an original JL8 crossram car. My car is an original JL8 car that I'm adding the crossram to. This car is a 68 Z28 conv. I think William did refer to a POP and some paperwork, I don't know if that includes a window sticker or not so I'll take that back. The GM Tech Center which installed the crossram and rear discs is not the Norwood assembly plant. Let me ask this, how do you define the original pedigree of a car?

1) As delivered off the assembly line with POP and window sticker
2) As modified and delivered by a dealer(suchas Yenko, BM, Nickey)
3) As modififed and by the GM Tech Center(so would that make the RAV Pontiacs now original cars?)
4) As purchased by the consumer with full warranty

It can't be all 4 so pick one. It seems that too many people like to define it so it has the most appeal and value.

What's your position on this car?

[Kurt S]

The car was built for Estes and there is a POP imprint that survives. I'm not aware of any documentation showing that it was converted by the Tech Center. Maybe there is some, but I haven't heard of it.
As configured now, the car is not factory original. It may be configured as modified by the Tech Center (if there's paper backing that up). That could be called GM original.