Thoughts on a 440 'Cuda

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
The seller is stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. I would not buy that car with it's historical baggage. I really dont know what the seller can do at this point. I think the seller is trying to get the info out there to possibly limit his civil liability if someones thinks the car was misrepresented as an original body car. But his verbage in the auction is something of an admission in a criminal sense, even though he had no part in the body swap. It shows he has knowledge of the VIN swap. He most likely would not be facing any criminal charges but he (or anyone that buys the car) could very easily lose the car to a police seizure as contraband. And if a buyer loses the car in a seizure, then the buyer would then try to sue the seller. But since the buyer was fully aware that it was a body swap, the buyer would probably lose the lawsuit based on the fact that he bought it with full knowledge that it was swapped.

Wow, that last paragraph is beginning to sound like the famous verbal duel in "The Princess Bride" between the Dread Pirate Roberts and the Sicilian Kidnaper, over which glass of wine contained the Iocaine poison in it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of words there, but I'd still like to know if you believe the seller should hide the fact he knows the car is a rebody, as it seems like that's what you're implying... As someone else stated in another post, it seems like either way it's the "wrong" way... Tell it like it is and admit its a rebodied car, that's bad, but hide what it is, and sell it without full disclosure, that's bad too. So, which route should the seller take? While I wouldn't buy this or any other rebodied car, I still think its a good thing the seller isn't hiding anything or using a bunch of fancy words to hide what the car is... he's putting out there in plain english without beating around the bush, so there's no question as to what the car is or is not.

IMO, you can describe all the laws and regulations you want, but in the end you gotta be on one side of this fence or the other...disclose the facts or don't. Which one are you on? I read your post 3 times but I really don't see an answer. If you have problems with the true history of the car being stated plainly in the ad then what do you think the seller should have stated in his description? Not trying to be an as$ about it, I'm just curious what your idea is of how this car should be described, if "openly and honestly" isn't the right way.

[njsteve]

I dont give answers, I give arguments for either posiiton - that's what lawyers do.

The seller is stuck with a potentially siezable car. You wanted my opinion, that's my opinion. Whether he tells the world or not, does nothing to change the car's status, it only affects what level of liability any present owner faces from trying to pass it off to the next guy. It doesn't change the fact of the car's tainted heritage and the end-result it faces today based on that heritage.

My advice to him, as unplatable as it is, is this: Take it to the motor vehicle department/highway patrol, explain the status and try to get a state VIN issued for the car. I think that is the only antidote for the poisoned VIN status of this car.

We all know the value of one of these cars is intrinisically linked to the VIN code but this car's VIN-based value was destroyed years ago when it was rebodied.

[PeteLeathersac]

All nicely put Steve but before everyone prints off your short version of what's right/wrong in the eyes of the law, isn't it necessary in some States and Provinces to have the delegated authority present when performing your mentioned 'entirely legal' situations and/or have given written notice of what's being done and in some places even receive an Ok to do so first?.

You're right on in the way you view this particular car...this guy'd be best to apply for a state issued Vin and devalued status that goes along w/ it before the car is removed from him and it's too late..

~ Pete

[njsteve]

Having a law enforcement/DMV person present is something I haven't run into. Anyone have any info on this?

I can only imagine the bureaucracy involved of scheduling someone to be present at a body shop when you cut a dash top off a Camaro...or having to wait days or weeks til they show up, just so you can do the work. It's hard enough getting the cable TV guy to show up between 8 and 5, let alone a government official.

I would recommend that anyone doing any type of major work near any VIN-related parts, take lots of photos of the progress, before, during, and after, just to CYA in case someone later claims you rebodied the car or moved numbers around.

[ANDY M]

Steve, for the benefit of the guys who have no idea who Barbara Striesand is, (man am I getting old), "Spiel" in german means "play", and is a verb. (ie, "Play ball", play cards, etc.) A "schpiel", in Yiddish, means more like a "play" as what you would see on stage. A "big schpiel" is a long-winded explanation of something that could have been explained with a lot less detail. It can also be used as a verb, like when you're playing cards with someone who is taking forever to make up his mind.
I guess it helps being an MOT.

[njsteve]

Amazing. And I thought I was the King of Useless Trivia. I guess I am only the Duke of Useless Trivia. You Sir, are the King.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Having a law enforcement/DMV person present is something I haven't run into. Anyone have any info on this?

I can only imagine the bureaucracy involved of scheduling someone to be present at a body shop when you cut a dash top off a Camaro...or having to wait days or weeks til they show up, just so you can do the work. It's hard enough getting the cable TV guy to show up between 8 and 5, let alone a government official.

I would recommend that anyone doing any type of major work near any VIN-related parts, take lots of photos of the progress, before, during, and after, just to CYA in case someone later claims you rebodied the car or moved numbers around.

[/ QUOTE ]

bureaucracy or not, if it is a state where this is required, then that would be "breaking the law" as much as any of the other points made.....

[PeteLeathersac]

Sorry it's from a Rustang site but here's some thoughts to consider if contemplating some of the previously mentioned scenarios...for one it sounds like our eBay Cuda guy would fry for what he's doing?!.

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

~ Pete

[mrhp]

After looking at those comments, I'm wondering about this: What is the 'spirit' behind these examples. It seems that these laws were written to prevent fraud, so the question comes up to me, is the intent to commit fraud, or is the intent to preserve a rare car by 'grafting' the heart onto a willing donor? I would think that if someone does the latter, they should get a state document or title identifying what has been done to prevent any problems. Perhaps this would be a salvage type title. IMHO, sadly many laws are written to blanket these areas because many times cars are redone to fraudulently deceive. I remember years ago visiting the Oriental Institute Museum on the U of Chicago campus, & seeing the loaded dice from ancient Egypt. As is being revealed every day in the news, cheating & fraud seems to be the chosen course for a good number. Thankfully most of the automotive hobby is filled with great people.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry it's from a Rustang site but here's some thoughts to consider if contemplating some of the previously mentioned scenarios...for one it sounds like our eBay Cuda guy would fry for what he's doing?!.

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

~ Pete


[/ QUOTE ]

Very good assortment of statutory examples of the criminal aspects of VIN-play. As you can see, you don't have to be intending to commit the crime (i.e. operating a chop shop and swapping VINs from one car to another to hide a stolen car) to be guilty of a violation of these statutes. Swapping a VIN to another body during a restoration is more than enough the be guilty of the crime. The appeals courts dont seem to care what your motive was when they agreed that the various examples were violations of the law.

As for the ebay cuda guy, Yup, even selling a VIN altered car falls under the statutes. Very scary indeed!