Selling Trim Tags ?????

[djunod]

There are ethics and there are "ethics".

1) Is it ethical to call a car an original COPO, when some/all the drivetrain and panels have been replaced, with numbers matching and/or NOS parts?

2) Is it ethical to even call it a COPO, when all that is COPO is the magic VIN or a piece of paper?

Replace COPO, with Yenko, Motion, Z-28, RS, SS, LS6, etc. and ask the same 2 questions.

The line seems to be indistinct for most people, it appears that a lot of people want to set it at the number matching replaced Trim Tag.

A few years ago when I was looking for a 427 for my Maco, I was talking on the phone with a potential supplier of that engine. When he asked me what date code I needed, the light bulb went on in my head... I finally realized that most of this "original", "number matching", "documented" stuff is just a bunch of hooha, based on what will bring in the most money.

Most everybody with a high dollar car knows this and is playing it like a game. Does Jay Leno do this with his car collection? It doesn't appear that way to me, to me it looks like he goes for eclectic & unique cars, for the cars themselves. He's obviously doing it for the cars, and not for the money.

Personally, I am in it for the cars themselves, the ones that appeal to me. Sometimes I do wish that I was willing to play that numbers game though... when I see how much money people make from it... but then I get back down to who I am, and that just isn't me.

These are my opinions, and have been mine for a while now.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
There are ethics and there are "ethics".

1) Is it ethical to call a car an original COPO, when some/all the drivetrain and panels have been replaced, with numbers matching and/or NOS parts?

2) Is it ethical to even call it a COPO, when all that is COPO is the magic VIN or a piece of paper?

Replace COPO, with Yenko, Motion, Z-28, RS, SS, LS6, etc. and ask the same 2 questions.

The line seems to be indistinct for most people, it appears that a lot of people want to set it at the number matching replaced Trim Tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Federal Law, it is the VIN that makes the car what it is. So, therefore the VIN and the body it was ORIGINALLY attached to, are what makes a COPO a COPO.

Engine, tranmissions, rears, etc., can be replaced and the car is still a COPO. But if you remove that VIN tag and put it on another body, the result is that you no longer have that orginal car (and you've committed a Federal felony as an added bonus...And no they don't care that you pulled it off of a rusted-beyond-repair car to salvage a historical automobile by placing it on a rust free body)

As for firewall data tags, you can do whatever you feel with one. *But if you attach it to another car in order to match how you've built that car and then represent it as that new car, you are committing fraud. And even if you tell the guy you sell the car to, that the tag was placed on there and it's not from that car originally you may still get sued, when your buyer then sells the car to someone else and lies about it...You will be part of the civil lawsuit when buyer #3 looks for deep pockets, because it was foreseeable that seller #2 would represent the car as real. You may even win your part of the lawsuit but you will be out a ton of $$$ for legal fees.

[WILMASBOYL78]

I have a trim tag from a 72 AMC Matador 4 door..first $5.00 takes it!

wilma

[hep1966]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a trim tag from a 72 AMC Matador 4 door..first $5.00 takes it!

wilma

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 2 for 66 Chevelles. One for a SS hardtop, the other for a 2 door hardtop w/ a few options. Taking offers.

[TimG]

A few years ago I found a '65 Shelby in a field near Brady, TX (it ain't near anything). It was total trash, no tags to be seen, but the original Mustang ID number was there for my viewing. You can believe I took it down. I don't know the Shelby serial number, but the Mustang ID number was forwarded to SAAC.

[Verne_Frantz]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and it's in print in a few books). The cowl tag is NOT the last "restoration" item for a car, made to match the way the car was restored - it is the birth certificate of the car, and the car should be restored to match it, not vice-versa.

Verne

[SamLBInj]

[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and it's in print in a few books). The cowl tag is NOT the last "restoration" item for a car, made to match the way the car was restored - it is the birth certificate of the car, and the car should be restored to match it, not vice-versa.

Verne

[/ QUOTE ]
You are right Verne, its the blueprint for the car.

[RichSchmidt]

Forst off,there are companies out there that have brand new blank trim tags and even protectoplates and the corect equipment to stamp them to say whatever you want them tosay.Why get tangled up in a build date/VIN sequence mismatch when you can nail al the numbers dead on?It is just one more reason why the value we place on our cars is really open to interpitation.

Right now we are facing the issue of repop bodies.It doesnt seem like an issue,but what is the difference between repoping entire bodies and hangining you vin tag onto it or just hangining every repop part on your existing VIN tag?

LEts say you see a combine mowing down a feild out in the middle of nowhere when all of a sudden the combine stops because something is stuck in it's blades?You get out to see what heppened,and it turns out that the combine driver just ran over a genuine RS/SS ZL1 Baldwin Motion Camaro.It is the only one ever build and from the alumimnum shards under the wheels of the combine you can see that the ZL1 mill is under the hood.You pick the car up and pencil trace the VIN,and apply for a title.Then you call up a few parts houses and order a new roofskin,full floorpans,a cowl panel and firewall sections,all the exterior panels,The trunk floor panels and all the rest of the stuff to restore the car.You then go on Ebay and buy a donor car for the subframe.The next thing you know,your camaro is reborn.This is about how far gone at least a 1/3 of all the remaining undiscovered supercars really are.So I guess it is all relitive.

[SamLBInj]

Ok I get it, Find an old small block 67 SS camaro convertible, plop in a brand new 396/375 hp big block freshly restamped motor(Hey, why not, the tag is fake anyway), rivet on the new tag and, Whala ,instant L78..cool, you can also sell it for about 50 grand more than what it was originally worth..what a great concept...by the way, this is already going on and the people doing it should be locked up...A cars cowl tag is the means of showing how it was ordered and built.

[RichSchmidt]

Thats pretty much how it is done.As it has been stated before,the law doesnt regard the trim tag as an actual document for the car.Changing the trim tag has the same legal reprecussions as restamping an engine block.Both are considred fraud,but since the law doesnt really place a value on what the trim tag or engine stampings are worth,it is a tough act to prosicute.If you purchase a car that is advertised as "all numbers matching",and you can prove that the engine is a restamp,you could stand a chance in court getting a refund if you could provide expert testimony to explain how the expession"all numbers" refers to the engine stampings and other components as well as explain how such a representation effects the value of the car,otherwise,the defendant could claim that he just meant that the title numbers matched the VIN on the dashboard,and the judge might be inclined to agree with him.

As for that scenerio that I mentioned about the replacment parts compared to the whole body,I was making light of the fact that many cars are restored and end up having no original structure or metal other then the VIN tag.If I were to find a crushed 69 camaro in the junkyard,pull it ou from the bottom of the pile,and start by placing the existing VIN tag onto a new repop cowl panel,then attaching the new cowl panel to some new toeboards,then attaching that to a new preassembled floorpan,and hangling some full rockers off of it,then adding some repop frame rails and a repop trunk floor and dropoffs,along with some repop inner roof structure,some reop fulll 1/4's,a repop roofskin and tail panel,some repop door sheels,and all the rest of the repop parts,how is it any different then just putting the tag on a repop body?How about if the car wasnt crushed,but rather totally rusted?How about if the job started with me welding a new cowl panel into the rusted hulk,then putting the tag on the new cowl panel,then replacing all the above mentioned parts one at a time?How about a law that makes it illegal to repair cowl boxes?Make it illegal to make any repairs to the cowl area of a car.If the car is so damaged that these areas need repaired,make it a law that the car must be proven destoyed in a metal shredder regardless of perceived or potential value.Race cars and wierd accidents would be no exceptions.

This is the problem with our hobby.Cars are selling for 10 times their book value for reasons that the law cant define.Take for example the proposed"all numbers matching" car that I mentioned above.Lets say that it was an RS/SS 68 camaro with an L78 4 speed and was 1 of 10 made in puke twist green.As such you payed 1 million dollars for the only know surviving example of such a car.As it turns out,the car and the trim tag are legit,but the engine is restamped.You feel that this devalues the car to be worth only $100,000 because there are 2 other NOM cars identical to yours in existance,but you payed the extra 900 grand for the numbers car.Should you get the 900 grand?Maybe only 200 grand?Whose to say?How about the guy who got scammed into buying a "numbers matching" white 327 powerglide 68 camaro on Ebay and found out that it had a 1976 pickup truck engine in it?He payed 10 grand for his car,but now it is only worth 9500.Can he still claim that he was robbed by as much as you were?Would any judge really want to touch that?As long as we continue to make it worthwhile for this business to exist,it will continue to thrive.