442 W-30 Documentation

[Belair62]

Thanks Dave...if you want to send me some pics of your 68 Ram Rod and a write up we can feature it for you.

[JoeG]

Yeah Dave,--Us old guys would luv to see an original owner RAM ROD---

[StealthBird]

I think one of the most cloned Musclecars around has to be the 70-72 W-30 cars. Buyer beware, documentation is a must on these cars. I have seen numerous clones that are advertised as "numbers matching", but what some sellers mean is that the actual components match, but not to the car. Also beware any broker or "museum" that uses phrases like "442 with W-30 package", or "442 with W-30 option". Most knowledgeable dealers advertise these rare cars as "442 W-30", plain and simple.

Just got back from the Mecum auction, and saw a clone 72 W-30 convertible, created from a base Cutlass, sell for over $25,000. Quite insane considering the 350 4-barrel under the hood, but it sold. There was also a numbers matching 70 W-30 4-speed, Sebring Yellow with black stripes. The car seemed complete, but had some serious body and paint related problems. From the audience, it probably looked like a 98 point car, but it really needed a lot of work.

On W-30's, aside from what was mentioned above by 442w30 up above, you have to see documentation, preferably the original owner paperwork, to verify these cars nowadays. Lucky for us Pontiac guys, we have PHS, so fake GTO's or Trans Am's are next to impossible to sell as real deals, unless an unsuspecting buyer believes everything the owner tells them, and chooses to go with their gut instinct. More often than not, you'll get burned.

By the way, Mecum was a hornet's nest for 69 Yenko clones. I was amazed at what some sold for, even poorly done ones.

[retengw31]

Belair 62:

I'd shine shoes, do the windows, etc. etc. for anyone with a 62 bubble top. Here's a recent pic. Car is a regular in Pure Stock and F.A.S.T. Has run a best of 13.30 at 105 on Polyglas with manifolds. Drivetrain refresh in 2000, otherwise all original including paint and interior. Upcoming feature article in Musclecar Enthusiast and American Muscle Car on Speed channel.

Great site.

dave

[Belair62]

Very cool car and can't wait to see the magazine....I sold the Belair to this year to a LVCamaro on this site....ahh the pain of it all but at least the car can breathe now

[Stefano]

W30s are near & dear to my heart.

I have found original broad cast cards (look like an IBM computer card) Behind the bucket seat panel or behind the springs under the rear seat. If the car is a W30 ,the option is listed.

The W30s have a specific carb#, distributor# and heads.Check casting dates to see when the parts were made in relation to the build date of the car.

Heads have external date codes.

There are rear axle ratios which a W30 cannot have, check the code.

Original Red fender wells have distinguishing clues.

Check W30 emblem holes on original sheet metal to see if drilled or punched.

The original numbers matching "factory Doc Watson blueprinted" 455 will not authenticate a W30 as it externally looks the same(casting number) as the std. 455.

All W30s had the W25 Induction hood but not nessarily the rear spoiler, but these options were available on all 442s 70-72.

[StealthBird]

Great info by Stefano! However, I must point out that any of these parts can be put onto any 442 to create a W-30, and you'd never know it was a fake unless you have the original paperwork or broadcast sheet. That's one of the most positive things about PHS documentation for Pontiacs, it comes from a 3rd party straight from the archives, and there's no way to fake a car. Of course, re-bodies and other extremes can always be done, but that's a different topic.

With a W-30, you either get the broadcast sheet, locate the original paperwork, or take your chances. The difference in value today between a 70 442 and a 70 W-30 is night and day. Documentation, documentation, documentation...

Also, most 70 W-30 hardtops did not come with a rear spoiler, but over the years many owners (and Cutlass/W-30 clone makers) added one. The rear spoiler was NOT available on the convertible body (442 or W-30). That's probably the single biggest boo-boo I see at car shows on ragtop 442 W-30 clones.

All in all, the W-30 cars are one of the coolest Musclecars ever made. They are really starting to get into the upper stratosphere of Musclecar collectability, and some are trading at prices that were previously reserved for Hemi and Yenko cars. Just what the doctor ordered...

[TimG]

StealthBird, I believe that I have seen the '70 W30 442 that you saw sell at the Mecum Auction. It was for sale in the parking lot at the Bloomington Gold show in St. Charles, IL. in June. I saw it late on Sunday evening after most of the cars had left, I was pumped up as I saw a for sale sign on it. When I got closer and looked at the chassis, I figured it may fall apart before the guy got it home. Pretty ratty frame. I just sold a nice clean "72 Arizona 442 yesterday.

[StealthBird]

Tim, if it was Sebring Yellow, that was the one! I was amazed how good that car looked in photos, but once you got up close, it had Bondo in the 1/4 panels, paint bubbling on the lower front fenders and trunk lid, and the doors (or fenders) were somehow bowed, creating an 1/4" gap at the beltline, but good alignment at the top of the fender and bottom of the fender. Looked as if someone squashed the fenders down from on top, causing them to bow out at the middle! Really strange... The driver's door handle took two hands to depress the button, and the door creaked and moaned as I opened it. Another reason never to buy a car sight unseen from an auction, or off of E-bay, without seeing it in person.

But I did see the documentation in the trunk, and I saw the original broadcast sheet showing the W-30 option, and it had manual brakes (as it should with a 4-speed W-30), but I wasn't interested in it enough to see the rest of the documents, the car really needed too much work.

[retengw31]

[ QUOTE ]
Tim, if it was Sebring Yellow, that was the one! I was amazed how good that car looked in photos, but once you got up close, it had Bondo in the 1/4 panels, paint bubbling on the lower front fenders and trunk lid, and the doors (or fenders) were somehow bowed, creating an 1/4" gap at the beltline, but good alignment at the top of the fender and bottom of the fender. Looked as if someone squashed the fenders down from on top, causing them to bow out at the middle! Really strange... The driver's door handle took two hands to depress the button, and the door creaked and moaned as I opened it. Another reason never to buy a car sight unseen from an auction, or off of E-bay, without seeing it in person.

But I did see the documentation in the trunk, and I saw the original broadcast sheet showing the W-30 option, and it had manual brakes (as it should with a 4-speed W-30), but I wasn't interested in it enough to see the rest of the documents, the car really needed too much work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen a couple of old amateur restorations like that that are falling apart now. Probably from the last "bubble" in the collector market in the late 80's.

Assuming those are original fenders, that gap is easy to fix with an additional 1/8 inch shim under the bottom mounting bolts. If aftermarket fenders or ones siamesed to fix the lower rustout, who knows?