1970 gto judge ram air IV

[Norm reynolds]

Motown amen [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]
Special equip could mean a lot of deferent things on the PHS it shows ram IV
I would think a Ram air v run a little more than $ 105.00
This debate will go on forever I have heard the same thing about factory built Buick stage II. Pontiac RAM V and Buick stage II was never Build at the factory I could see a dealer Order special equip and the factory put ram v equip in the trunk for the dealer to install But not at $105.00 Jim is the expert and has spent a lot of time getting the facts and has nothing to gain to say that this car is not a factory ram v

[Steve_Hoog]

I work GM dealership, back door deals still go on to this very day. Last year as a perk to our dealership (and a couple of others around the country) GM released several engines VIA backdoor including one of the all so awesome LT5 Corvette motors made in Stillwater Oklahoma, every single nut bolt and wire ready to run drop in out of the crate. There was NO "NON" NO official paper work that went through invoicing, this is approximately a $10,000 dollar engine. Why is it so hard to believe that a RAV engine couldn't have been installed back in 1970 with minimal notation on a PHS? Bill Knafel's explanation for the "memo" price being low was because the RAIV motor was never really put in the car, so the amount of "memo" was on top of the RAIV billing to somewhat compensate for the overall price tag. Out of the ordinary billings occur to this day in the GM arena, they call them policy adjustments. I submit to the boards viewers this was one of those policy adjustments. SD cars are accepted as factory produced cars, correct? If this car was built under similar circumstances, can it be accepted as a factory built car? To me, when they roll off the transport from GM they are a factory car. Bill Knafel has made an official statement this is the case with this Judge, that it came from engineering with this motor in it off the transport. Does anyone in here know who Bill is? And will back up his word?

Literally everyone on this board has mentioned some story they are aware of that is out of the ordinary. A great quote some one made on a previous page, "never say never".

[Charley Lillard]

"Bill Knafel has made an official statement this is the case with this Judge, that it came from engineering with this motor in it off the transport." I would like to believe that this stuff happened very much on the Sly and would venture a Guess it would be done under the Radar enough so People like Jim Mattison and others would not notice. How it gets proven I don't know but I kinda agree with never say never.

[Astock]

When I heard Jim M's post, I was actually relieved knowing that I had given the car away. Then I thought back to what the Knafels had told me, how they were 100% positive that the car was delivered to them with a RA V engine. I also recall how excited I heard they were about this car surfacing. Why would they have been so excited about a mere RA IV car. How many RA IV cars do you think went through their dealership along with all of the other significant cars? What would they possibly have to gain by making this claim?

[MotownMadman]

I will not say that it is not possible that the V engine was installed at enginneering, that could mean anything from at the research and development department to the proving grounds. Charlies post lends credence to this. Did the car travel down the assembly line with the V engine? Not likely. The build sheet shows the IV, which is therefore what would have been installed as it traveled down the line. It appears possibly both sides may be correct here, it was NOT a factory installed engine, but it MAY have been delivered to the dealer with it installed. A similar case exists in the Ford collector car community, the 1970 Boss 302 Mustang with AC. After much debate and research by many it seems the AC was installed by Ford enginneering. People are on both sides of the fence as to if the car is a factory build or not, with an engineering altered or assembled car I would have to say no, for if the cars that come from the engineering department become factory built that would mean every one off prototype built by every automaker would then have to be considered a "Factory Build", which is just not the case. In the case the engine was installed by Pontiac engineering that does indeed make it a unique car, but in the abcense of documentation to support where and when and by whom it was installed it lives as a IV car with a V engine installed along the way by someone. Aside from all of that it is still a very neat car, many of the current Supercars were dealer assembled and stand at the top of the hobby today. This becomes a case of wording and interpretation, the words "Original", "Factory", "#s Matching", all have to be used in the correct context with this car. If everyone decides they dont want it due to the debates I would be more then happy to give it a home.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

[John Glasgo]

This is an interesting post,maybe i can add to it.I am friends with ASTOCK,and Bill Knafel,both are straight up guys.I too have seen this car,it is very interesting,and i wished i would have bought it.Anyways,Knafel did get some very special stuff,and alot of it is still around. In 64 my father ordered an aluminum hood for his 64 gto,it took a while,but it did come in,how many other dealors could have gotton this? Around 1989 i went to look at a distributor machine that was in the newspaper for sale,laying next to the machine on a shelf,was a complete Ram Air 5 top end,heads,intake,factory numbered Holley carb,RA 5 Dist(TI)With the oe red cap,camshaft,and FACTORY GTO EXHAUST MANIFOLDS!The guy that owned this stuff was a farmer,who bought the parts of a guy that owned a towing company,he had all the parts on o 66 Bonneville,except the exhaust manifolds,which would not fit the B-body chassis,but they were on a car at some point!The guy that owned the bonne died,and nobody knew where he got the parts from,could they have been off this Judge? Who knows.I did buy the parts,and built a 69 gto around them,actually showed it at POCI,and the GTO Nats.So could this Judge have been built in engineering with a 5 motor,maybe,these parts came from somewhere,and until 1990 had been in Akron the whole time!

[DaJudge]

After speaking with Jim on Friday in regards to other vehicles I asked him about the car. He knows it and as you can see by his post he states clearly as he told me that the car was not delivered from the factory with a Ram Air V. The car is no slouch it is a RAM IV Judge and even if Knafel put the V in it at the dealership that is very cool. One very important fact is that the Ram Air V engine was never certified for federal emissions standards, even back then prodcution engines had to pass federal emission standards before they could be released to production.

Why would GM risk fines from the feds to release one car even to a dealer like Knafel Pontiac? They may have been high profile back in the day and very significant in Pontiac racing history and they sold a lot of Pontiacs but not enough to cover a huge fine and risk more stringent standards placed upon them in future engine programs and certifcations for federal government compliance. Even if it was back doored (which I don't believe personally) from engineering don't you think they would want to make sure the car was a race only vehicle?

The RA V is not like the engine in a COPO Camaro which was certified and released to the public.

Who cares what pans out here, it is a Real RA IV car which is very rare by itself when compared to some high dollar Mopars and others it's low production numbers make it more rare as we all see by the high dollars they are commanding the rest of hobby thinks so too. Look at the current edition of Mopar Collectors guide they ask some high profile Mopar restorers the state of the hobby and the guy at Aloha Restorations is doing a RA III 69 TA convertible and once completed he projects the price of this vehicle to be 400K. And they tell you keep an eye out for those RA IV cars.

This thread has been fun but like every vehicle out there whether it be a COPO, Yenko, Nickey, Motion, Bobcat and rare production cars, a paper trail showing real codes and history are what makes a car with a questionable story fact not fiction.

John that RA V 69 GTO you did is very nice, It had the V top end only right? With all the right goodies up top. the gentleman that owns it now was going to trade me that car for a 70 Z28 4 speed car that had 2,800 original documented miles which he purchased. You guys do some nice work.

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