1973 Grand Am 455 Super Duty

[SPEEDYB]

Thank you, very interesting read,
always saddens me that while pontiac folks have access to
so much great info, the same corporation has made info for other makes
unoptainable.

[WILMASBOYL78]

Great article and story...

Interesting time at the end of the muscle-car era....big motors still available [minus the compression]...net HP ratings...crash bumpers and catalytics on the way.

Thanks for sharing..

-wilma

[442w30]

Originally Posted by SPEEDYB

Thank you, very interesting read,
always saddens me that while pontiac folks have access to
so much great info, the same corporation has made info for other makes
unoptainable.

Unsolicited opinion:

-- Just like the US government, GM was a decentralized corporation. Each company within dealt with its operations. If something is no longer existing pertaining to a particular marque, chalk it up to operations not needing old paperwork to languish.

-- People also have stolen paperwork from said marques.

-- Today, there are people who have paperwork but won't share. That's a big reason why you may not have access to something.

Nonetheless, if you have needs, check with the GM Heritage Center. You may be surprise what they find.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 442w30

Unsolicited opinion:

-- Just like the US government, GM was a decentralized corporation. Each company within dealt with its operations. If something is no longer existing pertaining to a particular marque, chalk it up to operations not needing old paperwork to languish.

-- People also have stolen paperwork from said marques.

-- Today, there are people who have paperwork but won't share. That's a big reason why you may not have access to something.

Nonetheless, if you have needs, check with the GM Heritage Center. You may be surprise what they find.

I think it was much less intentional than what this would imply.

The discovery of the Pontiac information was a "happy accident" that we can attribute purely to Fred Simmonds.

Chevrolet was just too big and too spread out to have such a convenient, centralized location for all the information to reside (and subsequently be discovered).

K

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric -

Have you or anyone ever written an article about the "pre-history" of PHS?

During our trip I asked Fred about the technique he used to find the '62 and '63 Super Duty cars; before answering my question he framed the discussion by giving me the background of how he came to find the records and learn to use them, and how Mattison came to found Pontiac Historic Services.

I was driving and couldn't write anything down but this is how I remember what he said:

Back in the middle 1980's he was "into" HO model trains but as he got older he was frustrated because he couldn't see what he was doing (apparently he has always had poor eyesight). He ended up selling all of his train stuff but found himself without a hobby. His wife suggested that he should get a car so after a brief search he found the '67 Lemans that he still has.

His initial introduction to the Pontiac records was through trying to find out information about his own car. He mentioned to one of the secretaries that he would like to know how his car was built and she said "oh, I can find that out". Sure enough, within a couple days she produced the invoice and option content (sort of a prehistoric "PHS" packet!). He asked her how she did that and she replied that the information still existed on property and that it was guarded by a financial person.

Fred later found out this financial guy was going to retire, so he began to visit with him and learn where the information was located and how it was stored. During this time (still mid 80's?) there was a lot of employee turmoil in the form of retirements and outright separations so there was a lot of stuff getting thrown out. Fred told all his friends he was interested in "right of first refusal" so anything they had that might be interesting was passed by him before being pitched. He said he would literally make a trip home every night with all kinds of photos, literature, memorabilia, hardware, trophies, paint samples, etc.

By this time they were receiving maybe a request or two a day from Pontiac enthusiasts (usually fellow employees) that had heard about this service. Between Fred or his friend they were able to fulfill these requests. Additionally, Fred would come in early and poke around, then maybe return at lunch time and finally spend some time in the records before heading home for the evening, just nosing around.

Eventually the requests got to be too much for one person to handle on a part time basis, maybe 20 or so a day. He and Jim Mattison had been friends before that and Jim had become quite familiar with the records and how they were organized (more on that in a minute). It was at that point that Jim approached Pontiac Motor Division and suggested that he could form a company (Automotive Services) and maintain the records and fulfill these requests for information. At that point the information would still belong to Pontiac (I'm guessing) but he would provide the service as a contractor (I'm sure). All of this was taking place while the records were down in the vault, in the basement of the Administration building.

When the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which formed the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

So - about the Super Dutys: The very first request had to do with one of the '62 Super Duty Grand Prix (Allan Gartzman's '62 Grand Prix; one of 16). Fred got a request to check into that car and, having been provided the VIN, he was able to confirm that it was in fact a Super Duty car. There was some variation in how the records were stored based on model year; the '62s were one way (maybe by VIN by Plant) and the '63s were different (like in VIN order by plant but grouped by body style). At any rate what he did was search for that car and then extend his search a little bit in both directions, looking for the engine option code. Eventually, he had a list of VINs going and so he expanded his search to include Catalinas and Bonnevilles (ie, non Grand Prix models) until he had a comprehensive list of 1962 cars. He looked through every 1962 invoice record; He said he continued on into '63 but did not actually look at them all - he went through 160,000 or so invoices but when he got out into the May or June timeframe it had been so long since he had seen any car that even remotely resembled a performance car that he gave up. Bottom line is that Fred literally went through hundreds of thousands of invoices, one by one (on the microfiche) in order to find those cars.

I thought it was fascinating and that others might also be interested. It might be a good idea to get this down on paper (accurately) before it's too late.

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I think it was much less intentional than what this would imply.

The discovery of the Pontiac information was a "happy accident" that we can attribute purely to Fred Simmonds.

Chevrolet was just too big and too spread out to have such a convenient, centralized location for all the information to reside (and subsequently be discovered).

K

im not sure how far back fred simmons was messing with the sheets (i didnt meet fred until after jim took it over), but back in the late 70's i just randomly called pontiac headquarters and asked about any info i might be able to get on my 70 trans am and they transferred me to a guy named carl klessic (cant remember now on the spelling). he was super nice and said he really didnt know but would see what he could find out. he called me back and said he found paperwork on my car and he and i became very friendly to the point thru the 80's i would call his office and his home phone with a vin and he would call me back and tell me if a car was a real one. he also introduced me to john sawruck. in the mid/late 80's i let tim dye know about this service and he posted it in the poci (if i remember correctly) magazine which then overwhelmed them and they shut it down. then came jim mattison who managed to work out a deal with them and it became PHS services. the rest is history.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

im not sure how far back fred simmons was messing with the sheets (i didnt meet fred until after jim took it over), but back in the late 70's i just randomly called pontiac headquarters and asked about any info i might be able to get on my 70 trans am and they transferred me to a guy named carl klessic (cant remember now on the spelling). he was super nice and said he really didnt know but would see what he could find out. he called me back and said he found paperwork on my car and he and i became very friendly to the point thru the 80's i would call his office and his home phone with a vin and he would call me back and tell me if a car was a real one. he also introduced me to john sawruck. in the mid/late 80's i let tim dye know about this service and he posted it in the poci (if i remember correctly) magazine which then overwhelmed them and they shut it down. then came jim mattison who managed to work out a deal with them and it became PHS services. the rest is history.

Carl Klessic - I know that name, too.

K

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

How we got our First GTO

Ok, so its the fall of 1963 and Dad is now the proud owner of a brand new 1964 GTO.

Well....I use the term "proud" loosely. This car had the worst paint job of any production vehicle that he had ever seen in his life. It had little flecks of dirt in it and globs of some kind of black stuff that wouldn't wash off. It also had poor adhesion, and if tape was applied the paint would come right off when you attempted to remove the tape.

Although grateful to not be stuck with a total loss, Dad went back to see Dick Jesse to complain. "Dick" he said "I'd be embarrased to drive this car; it needs a total repaint".

Dick wasn't sure the factory would cover a totally new paint job but said he would make some calls. He contacted the factory rep, Carl Klessick*, and Carl agreed to paint only the problem areas. Dad was to take a small piece of masking tape and stick it over any spots needing repair.

Dad did as he was told and drove the car over to Carl's office. Carl came down to the street, only to find this '64 GTO COMPLETELY (!) covered with masking tape. I think Dad said he used a whole roll to cover the car. Carl approved a total repaint - at the factory and at their expense - right then and there.

After the car was painted it was taken back to Royal and one of the new car prep guys put a real nice "Blue Coral" wax job on it. When all was said and done it was a very respectible looking automobile.

After doing his own "Royal Bobcat supertune" job on the car (similar to post #61 of this thread: "The Gasket Story") Dad was having good success with this car as well. It was also never defeated in B/S class competition and, legend has it, the first GTO here locally to run in the twelves.




*I'm sorry, I can't remember the last name for sure and couldn't find it in my notes.

[muscle_collector]

thats awesome keith. i cant remember now when it was but he let me know he was retiring and had enjoyed looking up all the cars for me. i tried to pay him over the years for it and he wouldnt take a dime. he always told me that he really enjoyed looking at the paperwork on the old cars. i really never knew what he did title wise there but he was one super nice guy. (he saved me from buying numerous fake judges i do know that).