Bye Bye To The American V-8...

[70 copo]

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We have been there. same policies that gave us the 55MPH Speed limit and 165 HP V8's. Not a future I want.

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A speed limit? Petty . . . speed limits are still low in my area.

165 hp? Blame GM for that.


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IMO... People who buy GM want what GM does best-an American V-8. HP and torque for towing and power for performance.


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No, you're speaking of the hobbyist who drives V8s as a hobby.

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GM has tried to gain back market segment in cars from the imports for years by trying to be "like an import", while abandoning its core market for car buyers. Discontinuation of the F-body platform in 2002 is a prime example where the cobalt was to compete against the imports and the SSR was a bone thrown to the Camaro buyer.

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You're mistaken about Detroit's marketing. Discontinuing the F-body was arguable. The Cobalt was replacement for the unlamented Cavalier, and merely was Chevy's submission to competing in a class of vehicles. SSR? A niche vehicle.

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Wrong on the Cobalt wrong on the SSR. More people left GM and went to other market segments.

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What's wrong with the Cobalt? Lackluster in comparison to the competition? So whose fault was that?

Ditto with the SSR - lack of hp? Whose fault was that?

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Along the way GM finally became self aware and tried to reverse course. Difference is that now GM will be forced to build cars that are aligned with a market segment that they lost a decade ago to Honda and Toyota and I seriously doubt those buyers will be back abesent a rock bottom price.

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This may come as a surprise to you, but GM is not self-aware. GM's current situation most certainly has something to do with the economy but, even more so, GM's current situation has a hell of a lot to do with GM. Blaming the government is a convenient way to ignore the problems GM has had . . . but that's par for the course as GM has ignored its problems for years. Ironic, considering they have a portfolio of stellar cars.

Now, against the wall, GM is faced with making compromises in its future. The capitalist in me says to let GM die, but the American in me says we need to help Detroit as much as we can. . . so we have the government to do that.

You can't get back to health until you figure out what's causing the symptoms. I hope that GM has figured it out for once.

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Speaking of speed limits why not speed governed vehicles that are adjusted by GPS... They are looking into this now for future applications...

On the cobalt.. you can disagree but its sales are what they are.. do a comparison with the imports.

On the SSR - it currently makes multiple lists of the worst vehicles ever built. Check it out. If you need help I will post links for you.


The Imports are what they are. Typically they are small displacement and are far less than exciting to drive and lack the butt busting torque that most American's prefer when towing or driving a muscle car.

Remember a little thing called Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness?? Constraints like this placed upon the the folks by the government is exactly what ended the first round of performance cars in the early 1970's and will no doubt end it now.

Question for you.... Tell us all how we will be able to meet fleet 2016 MPG requirements, Mass produce a vehicle that a defined market segment still clearly wants to buy (Camaro, Corvette, Challenger, Mustang check the sales they are significant) and still make over 400 HP with an "all American V8" and keep it fun to drive?

That was (and is) the topic of this thread...lest we go too far into the weeds

IMO.... The Government has NO business telling the market and a significant buying segment what it can or cannot drive.

Make no mistake I am not talking about Hobbyists but new vehicles.

[442w30]

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Speaking of speed limits why not speed governed vehicles that are adjusted by GPS... They are looking into this now for future applications...

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You're offering more fire and brimstone. Why not offer substance?


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On the cobalt.. you can disagree but its sales are what they are.. do a comparison with the imports.

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Um, I'm a little confused what you're talking about.

There's a market segment where Chevrolet has an interest in offering their submission for the public's demand. Chevrolet offers a value-laden car that doesn't compete well with better offerings from Japan, Korea, or even across town.

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On the SSR - it currently makes multiple lists of the worst vehicles ever built. Check it out. If you need help I will post links for you.

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I've seen those articles. They are lame and only end up feeding more BS to the general population that Detroit's problem was product and quality when that isn't necessarily the problem.

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The Imports are what they are. Typically they are small displacement and are far less than exciting to drive and lack the butt busting torque that most American's prefer when towing or driving a muscle car.


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So you're comparing a daily driver with a musclecar?

What's wrong with this picture?

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Remember a little thing called Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness?? Constraints like this placed upon the the folks by the government is exactly what ended the first round of performance cars in the early 1970's and will no doubt end it now.


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What ended the first round of performance cars was insurance. The energy crisis merely followed.

Besides, your right to go fast is not a right at all. In fact, to tie liberty to a car is kinda funny - there are people in the world who can't say what they feel because of a totalitarian regime, and you think your freedom is being undermined? You have plenty of resources at your disposal to go fast despite your doom-and-gloom prognosis (which, by the way, hasn't been qualified yet).

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Question for you.... Tell us all how we will be able to meet fleet 2016 MPG requirements, Mass produce a vehicle that a defined market segment still clearly wants to buy (Camaro, Corvette, Challenger, Mustang check the sales they are significant) and still make over 400 HP with an "all American V8" and keep it fun to drive?

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I don't like CAFE and I don't like the new proposal. However, I try to call a spade a spade rather than get all bent out of shape over uncertainty. I try to look at the big picture and, when it comes down to Detroit, they have an antiquated business model with horrendous legacy costs and a poor product portfolio. The poor economy has reduced their liquidity although Ford had the luck of selling off its assets before things got bad. Now, they are in PR mode trying to tell us they're better because they didn't receive a loan, but I know Ford is as bad as any other company in Detroit.

[Late BrakeU2]

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Ford had the luck of selling off its assets before things got bad. Now, they are in PR mode trying to tell us they're better because they didn't receive a loan, but I know Ford is as bad as any other company in Detroit.


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Luck, or foresight? When the dust settles they will be the only domestic left that didn't file BK and crawl to this admin with a cup in their hand. Maybe they had less arrogance than the other two,and actually released new products on time?

And now the UAW is pissed GM is planning to import cars from China- go figure

[442w30]

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Luck, or foresight? When the dust settles they will be the only domestic left that didn't file BK and crawl to this admin with a cup in their hand. Maybe they had less arrogance than the other two,and actually released new products on time?


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Luck.

Don't forget that it was just a few short years ago that Ford was in the weakest position of the Big 3. They have had a lot of problems in the decade as well, including:

- the Explorer tire debacle
- letting the equity of the Taurus sink, then introducing the 500 with no identity whatsoever
- letting Mercury and Lincoln become badge-engineered nothings
- not importing the second-generation Focus to America

Ford does not deserve my good graces any more than any other company in Detroit.

[Late BrakeU2]

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Luck.



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It is said that luck is when preparation meets opportunity, Ford had a chance to restructure it's debt before someone else did it for them(hint) In the end it only goes on the scoreboard one way though.

Guess it was just bad timing on GM's part?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GM&t...mp;q=l&c=F

[70 copo]

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Luck.



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It is said that luck is when preparation meets opportunity, Ford had a chance to restructure it's debt before someone else did it for them(hint) In the end it only goes on the scoreboard one way though.

Guess it was just bad timing on GM's part?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GM&t...mp;q=l&c=F

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Boy that chart says it all. Someone at Ford was thinking.

[69Tom]

I not saying this to be a smart-a$$ or be facetious, but honestly, do the majority of people really care about cars anymore? I mean, really have a bond with a brand or a love for their car? We're car guys so I think it's easy to think people care as much as we do. I dunno, out of my group of friends in my age range, I'm one of the few people who's really into cars. I'll meet some people who are into BMWs or Porsches, but when it comes to an American brands, it seems like that was killed off somewhere along the last 20 year road into oblivion.

People are claiming, "But the Camaro had 14K pre-orders!!!" Now, this is a good thing and I'm glad there's still some interest, but when you compare this to production totals of the Camaro in its heyday, it's barely skimming the overall production. Now, hopefully, over the production year, they'll get a lot more orders. But I'd actually be surprised to see it break 50K. Hopefully I will be so.

All in all, people seem to only use their cars to get from point A to B. They want one that does so cheaply, with as little effort or work on their part as possible. I sometimes think if a car was invented that washed itself, never needed an oil change, and got good gas mileage, it would immediately become the best selling car in the US, irrespective of how it looked. If you need an example, check the style (if you can call it that) of the Toyota Prius. That is possibly one of the ugliest cars on the road (in fact, do hybrid cars automatically have to be ugly as hell? is that a governmental requirement?)

I come from a GM family--my grandfather worked at the Tonawanda plant building engines--chances are he built my COPO engine, and my other grandfather sold tooling to GM--so I am not stating this from an angle that come from hope the performance car and the US car companies die. It just seems like that's the way things are and will be unless car designs start sparking an interest in people again.

It'll definitely be harder with those fuel requirements and costs. And definitely hard to sway people's sentiment the other way about it.

Feel free to prove me wrong. In fact, I hope I am wrong. It's just the sense I get from people in the younger generations.

[70 copo]

Not so fast...



"What ended the first round of performance cars was insurance. The energy crisis merely followed".
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What about the governmental requirement to switch to unleded low octane fuel. Did you forget about that?? Way more to do with the death of performance than insurance.

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"Besides, your right to go fast is not a right at all. In fact, to tie liberty to a car is kinda funny - there are people in the world who can't say what they feel because of a totalitarian regime, and you think your freedom is being undermined? You have plenty of resources at your disposal to go fast despite your doom-and-gloom prognosis (which, by the way, hasn't been qualified yet)".

Perhaps in your world view -I have no right to go fast. Thanks for making your positions clear for all to see publicly right here! With this view (your view), the car collector could soon be a target of future "progressive legislation" without a doubt targeting muscle cars- (and needless to say, but I will anyway)... I disagree with you 100% on this opinion and most here would do the same

"I don't like CAFE and I don't like the new proposal. However, I try to call a spade a spade rather than get all bent out of shape over uncertainty. I try to look at the big picture and, when it comes down to Detroit, they have an antiquated business model with horrendous legacy costs and a poor product portfolio. The poor economy has reduced their liquidity although Ford had the luck of selling off its assets before things got bad. Now, they are in PR mode trying to tell us they're better because they didn't receive a loan, but I know Ford is as bad as any other company in Detroit"

But I asked you a simple question about the future of the V-8 where you could have been so proactive...

[70 copo]

Here is the far Green digest of all things automotive, and guess what they hate V8's and are signaling a dislike for the new Camaro... Imagine that.

Here: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05...aro-success-w/

[442w30]

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What about the governmental requirement to switch to unleded low octane fuel. Did you forget about that?? Way more to do with the death of performance than insurance.

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Not really.

For all the hype about 1970, the trend against performance cars was already in place. Don't believe me? Look at sales for all performance cars compared with 1969. Certainly lowered compression by 1972 played a role, but performance was not hurt a much as people have said in the past (judging by the Pure Stock races, among other things).

Insurance was the death knell.


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Perhaps in your world view -I have no right to go fast. Thanks for making your positions clear for all to see publicly right here! With this view (your view), the car collector could soon be a target of future "progressive legislation" without a doubt targeting muscle cars- (and needless to say, but I will anyway)... I disagree with you 100% on this opinion and most here would do the same

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You sure about that? We all know the cliche about driving being a privilege, so how is "going fast" any different? And who says you can't modify your car to "go fast?"

Once again, nothing qualified. Show me some proof.

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But I asked you a simple question about the future of the V-8 where you could have been so proactive...

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CAFE is an aggregate item, so the V-8 won't disappear anytime soon.