Trim tag swapping

[Lynn]

Doing a little research here. Obviously the Norwood built 69 Camaros are getting the most activity in this arena. Are other makes and models getting tags swapped? I am guessing Pontiacs not much since PHS can id all original equipment. What about Chrysler products?

I now know that GM started designating engines with part of the vin in 1972 (thanks Pete), so I am guessing the post 71 cars don't see much tag swapping. Anyone with evidence or stories to the contrary.

Thanks for any help. It is going to a good cause, I promise.

[Bill Pritchard]

[ QUOTE ]
What about Chrysler products?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't Chrysler products have the VIN on their tags? That would pretty much preclude swapping them......but not necessarily from replacing them with repops.

As an aside (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), I don't believe Galen Govier actually has access to Chrysler production records in the same fashion as PHS does for Pontiacs and Kevin Marti does for Fords.

[njsteve]

That is correct. Galen has statistical information but no paperwork info like PHS. He also the keeper of orphaned broadcast sheets that have been found in cars over the years. (a common situation in Mopars) He has actually reunited several broadcasts with their cars over the years.

[PeteLeathersac]

Great topic...all my personal opinions here to follow..

Galen is repopping the Mopar tags also I believe Marti is for the Fords too and I can't say I'm in agreement with anyone doing it, BUT...depending on what info they offer to anyone questioning them on specific tags, I still have a small window of reason open considering they could be the lesser of the evils...again depending on how they repond to queries of questionable tags WHEN THEY DO KNOW the answer..

'Trim tags' company who repop the GM tags is knowingly making money assisting in fraud cars and is not a help to the hobby...they only continue to help create even more BS also their services help seperate the real tags from their genuine cars thus ruining future projects for the purists..

I recall the fonts were slightly different on the Marti tags and wondered if it's on purpose or not...again, need to learn more before judging..

Don't know enough about Galen's tags yet but I've dealt with him on a few occasions over the years and always considered him a straight up guy...only now w/ the tag scene am I on the fence until more is known of his tag service...I believe it's called GTS?.

Marti's decoding services are from real documents in PHS & Canadian GM car fashion so a fake set of numbers can't be decoded..

Galen's decoding is from experience and a database of cars so he's not able to document a new to him Vin, thus could be tricked...not easily but possible..

There's supposedly Buick GSX documents recently found...maybe not all but some so if true, documenting would be similar to services of PHS & Canadian GM cars..

As I've mentioned here before, I read years back that GM US vehicle documents are supposed to exist but in train box cars of paper and microfilm that would require years of labour to go through and sort into a format that you could ever look anything up.. I heard this from a GM Canada source back in the 80's when the Canadian documents became available...could be BS but is nice to have hanging over the fraudsters heads so they know their games could be someday exposed?

~ Pete

[Lynn]

As for the GM cars, I know of at least one company that offers tags on cars through the 1977 model year. Seeing that the specific engine designation is in the VIN from 72 on, seems very few of the post 71 cars would get a fake tag. Anyone ever see a post 71 GM car with a fake tag? I know this 71 model was recently sniffed out with a swapped tag: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ORIGINAL-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Also, what years did Ford and Chrysler start using a specific digit in the VIN to designate the engine?

Thanks.

[mockingbird812]

[ QUOTE ]
That is correct. Galen has statistical information but no paperwork info like PHS. He also the keeper of orphaned broadcast sheets that have been found in cars over the years. (a common situation in Mopars) He has actually reunited several broadcasts with their cars over the years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve - your statement is true for '67 and newer MoPars. For '66 and earlier cars, paperwork is available. The Chrysler Historical Collection in Detroit in most cases will have a Build Record (essentially like a buildsheet on a punch card). The build record will contain the serial number (VIN) and the all important Shipping Order Number (stamped 3 places on the body - one hidden). It also contains all options on car including powertrain. They will photocopy this record (see picture) from their archives for a very reasonable fee. Galen has had access to this info as well as some other former Chrys employees. This era includes the Max/Street Wedge and Race/Street Hemis !