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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
I see prices have returned to earth. Nice car. Priced about right. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Wow, haven't seen an X mark on the rear seat brace that clear before. was it ever touched up or anything? wish mine was that clear. good luck with the sale, beautiful car and color!
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
What does the X mean?
Todd |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
A survivor that has been painted? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
I see prices have returned to earth. Nice car. Priced about right. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif [/ QUOTE ] Not sure you can base that on this car. The car is obviously NOT a survivor. Has incorrect paint, hood, grill, incorrect ride height/springs and many missing/incorrect pieces under the hood. No information regarding documentaion, and is low option car. Not trying to bash this car, but it is neither a survivor or concours restored car. What do you think this would have been worth a year ago? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
well,he's not asking 75k for it,it's a real Z,
his motor isnt restamped along with every other component with a number on it. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Wow. I have never seen a chalk mark that brite or clear before either. Also, all the ones that I have seen have alot more glue on the brace. Of course, I have only seen 8-10 in person, so my experiance may be limited.
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
well,he's not asking 75k for it,it's a real Z, his motor isnt restamped along with every other component with a number on it. [/ QUOTE ] Not sure what your responding to or your point. My point was that this car's value has not changed, it was worth 40K a year ago and thats what it is worth today. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
1 Attachment(s)
Here is the X on my L89 car. About the same.
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I have never seen a chalk mark that brite or clear before either. Also, all the ones that I have seen have alot more glue on the brace. Of course, I have only seen 8-10 in person, so my experiance may be limited. [/ QUOTE ] There was no science or protocol used in applying the chalk mark or glue. I would consider that typical from the cars I have inspected. I will post some example later. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
What does the X mean? Todd [/ QUOTE ] The X is a style trim. X33 or X77 is used for the 69 Z/28 to denote different trim. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Sorry guys; I was just alerted that the ad was posted over here....to answer a few questions.
1) The X7 on the rear bulkhead; dunno what to tell you except that it is what it looked like when I pulled the rear seat, and the cardboard backer off. My camera does tend to make light stuff really light, but it doesn't look too different, and is very similar to others I've seen. To answer some of the other stuff.....the car is a survivor in the sense that it retains its original DZ and M21, and has not been monkeyed with. The paint isn't perfect (although it was repainted, who knows when...definitely not recently), the gaps of the fenders, doors and hood aren't laser straight, the underside isn't perfectly detailed with added chalk and factory paint markings, its a car that's been owned, driven and enjoyed. Sure, its not a survivor in the sense that I found it in Farmer Johnson's hay barn, its just managed to make it nearly 40 years without a concourse restoration. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I see prices have returned to earth. Nice car. Priced about right. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif [/ QUOTE ] Not sure you can base that on this car. The car is obviously NOT a survivor. Has incorrect paint, hood, grill, incorrect ride height/springs and many missing/incorrect pieces under the hood. No information regarding documentaion, and is low option car. [/ QUOTE ] In 40 years, the "use" items like the alternator, starter, distributor, carb and manifolds have disappeared, but are readily avilable for purchase through any vendor. Early '69 Z's were low option, generally, and its kind of cool like that. I personally don't get the point of a road racer, with hideaway headlights, woodgrain trim, a rosewood wheel, power windows, power steering, deluxe interior....etc. Seems like every Z for sale has every option GM threw at the car, and I'm sure 99% of the options are added after the fact. I feel that $40k is a very good price for the car. Sure, its missing some original stuff, and the paint has been redone, but the 3 priceless items are there. A VIN stamped car, a VIN stamped DZ, and a VIN stamped M21. Price accordingly. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry guys; I was just alerted that the ad was posted over here....to answer a few questions. 1) The X7 on the rear bulkhead; dunno what to tell you except that it is what it looked like when I pulled the rear seat, and the cardboard backer off. My camera does tend to make light stuff really light, but it doesn't look too different, and is very similar to others I've seen. To answer some of the other stuff.....the car is a survivor in the sense that it retains its original DZ and M21, and has not been monkeyed with. The paint isn't perfect (although it was repainted, who knows when...definitely not recently), the gaps of the fenders, doors and hood aren't laser straight, the underside isn't perfectly detailed with added chalk and factory paint markings, its a car that's been owned, driven and enjoyed. Sure, its not a survivor in the sense that I found it in Farmer Johnson's hay barn, its just managed to make it nearly 40 years without a concourse restoration. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I see prices have returned to earth. Nice car. Priced about right. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif [/ QUOTE ] Not sure you can base that on this car. The car is obviously NOT a survivor. Has incorrect paint, hood, grill, incorrect ride height/springs and many missing/incorrect pieces under the hood. No information regarding documentaion, and is low option car. [/ QUOTE ] In 40 years, the "use" items like the alternator, starter, distributor, carb and manifolds have disappeared, but are readily avilable for purchase through any vendor. Early '69 Z's were low option, generally, and its kind of cool like that. I personally don't get the point of a road racer, with hideaway headlights, woodgrain trim, a rosewood wheel, power windows, power steering, deluxe interior....etc. Seems like every Z for sale has every option GM threw at the car, and I'm sure 99% of the options are added after the fact. I feel that $40k is a very good price for the car. Sure, its missing some original stuff, and the paint has been redone, but the 3 priceless items are there. A VIN stamped car, a VIN stamped DZ, and a VIN stamped M21. Price accordingly. [/ QUOTE ] If you read my post, I agree with the pricing on the car, and pointed out why it was priced accordingly (and not a 75K car). Don't take my orig post the wrong way. I don't however agree that this car is a survivor by any definition. Great car to get into and drive. And as you state; how many with orig drivetrains.... Good luck with your sale. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
A survivor that has been painted? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif [/ QUOTE ] That's not the only thing different from new on the car. I was wondering the same thing. I guess the term's definition has changed. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
I agree that it is a nice car for the money.
But, is there anyone that would disagree that "survivor" means unrestored or unchanged in any way?? A rust bucket could be a survivor, but a repainted car can not IMO. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A survivor that has been painted? <img src="https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...unno.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>
That's not the only thing different from new on the car. I was wondering the same thing. I guess the term's definition has changed. </div></div> The survivor term used by and trade marked by Bloomington folks requires a car be 51+% unrestored to be considered a certified survivor. In theory if a car was repainted but the three other areas were 100% unrestored it would be classified as a survivor, because as a whole it was 51+% unrestored. I am not an expert on their program, but it is my understanding that is there criteria. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure what your responding to or your point. My point was that this car's value has not changed, it was worth 40K a year ago and thats what it is worth today. [/ QUOTE ] im just saying that you know it's a real Z,not one of the other 40,000 that have appeared over the years,that people want 75k for. as far as im concerned,a survivor is a car that has survived wear and tear,not just sitting in a garage for 30 years,and sufferring from excessive wear and tear from over waxing the paint. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Not sure what your responding to or your point. My point was that this car's value has not changed, it was worth 40K a year ago and thats what it is worth today. [/ QUOTE ] im just saying that you know it's a real Z,not one of the other 40,000 that have appeared over the years,that people want 75k for. as far as im concerned,a survivor is a car that has survived wear and tear,not just sitting in a garage for 30 years,and sufferring from excessive wear and tear from over waxing the paint. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif [/ QUOTE ] By your definition I would classify it as a "survived camaro" not sure what it survived. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Its better that a car be over described and underpriced, rather than under described and overpriced....Its a nice Z, priced under its true market value in any event
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Son of a gun fellas....sorry to ruffle some feathers. I was in line with Andy Tante's thoughts that the car had made it through 38 years of use without losing drivetain or being back-halved for a drag car.
I truely apologize for my mis-grammar, and please ignore the term survivor wherever used. I meant no harm, and certainly did not intend to mislead, or try to mis-describe the car in any way. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
If i was in the market for a Z,id be in Vermont right now.[well maybe tommorrow,theres a foot of snow on the ground] Good price for the car.
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
Son of a gun fellas....sorry to ruffle some feathers. I was in line with Andy Tante's thoughts that the car had made it through 38 years of use without losing drivetain or being back-halved for a drag car. I truely apologize for my mis-grammar, and please ignore the term survivor wherever used. I meant no harm, and certainly did not intend to mislead, or try to mis-describe the car in any way. [/ QUOTE ] Adam your car is a fine car. No need to apologize, no feather ruffle here. The survivor discussion began when someone stated "how can a car that has been repainted be considered a survivor" I actually stated how a car could be based on the Bloomington Certification guidelines. Then Andy made up his own definition which I (jokingly)referred to as a "survived camaro". Please don't take the discussion we have had here the wrong way. I prefer unrestored cars like yours, nothing hidden... |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
let's be realistic.
Bloomington guidelines refer to cars that have been sitting in a garage for 40 years,probably in a museum. sure they have all the original parts,but that's because they havent moved in 40 years. i have seen examples that dont fit that criteria be considerred a "survivor" that arent museum pieces,that amaze me,though. but this Z28 actually defines survivor by being "driven". sure,the original alternator and water pump puked over the years,and it got another paint job,but that is because it's been "driven". i fail to see the "big deal" factor in a car that sits in a garage for 40 years,only to be brought out and proclaimed "survivor' because it still has the original air in the tires,or the spare tire still smells like rubber. impress me,and fire that museum piece up,and run it down the 1/4,without that "original" fan belts,water pump,and alternator going south. to be a survivor,you should survive something,other than time this is only my opinion,nothing more. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">let's be realistic.
Bloomington guidelines refer to cars that have been sitting in a garage for 40 years,probably in a museum. sure they have all the original parts,but that's because they havent moved in 40 years. i have seen examples that dont fit that criteria be considerred a "survivor" that arent museum pieces,that amaze me,though. but this Z28 actually defines survivor by being "driven". sure,the original alternator and water pump puked over the years,and it got another paint job,but that is because it's been "driven". i fail to see the "big deal" factor in a car that sits in a garage for 40 years,only to be brought out and proclaimed "survivor' because it still has the original air in the tires,or the spare tire still smells like rubber. impress me,and fire that museum piece up,and run it down the 1/4,without that "original" fan belts,water pump,and alternator going south. to be a survivor,you should survive something,other than time this is only my opinion,nothing more. </div></div> I don't want to get into a pissing match here but your first statement could not be further from the truth (you need to get informed before you make inaccurate statements). The operation phase of the certification is essential and includes a monitored 30 mile drive and includes all operational and functional areas. Without some guidelines, anyone could call or classify a car what ever they wanted. Without certifications and standards such as a #1, 2, 3 or 4, buyers and sellers would be talking apples and oranges. Standards are important and protect us all from wasting a lot of time on wild goose chases and misrepresentation. Camaro standards and terminology mirror the Corvette world to a high degree (why reinvent the wheel) The thinking (IMHO) behind a car that is categorized as a survivor or benchmark is that it sets the standards by which cars should be built/restored to (represent how they left the factory). Yes these cars may be pampered to some degree, but they do represent historical data that would be lost if modified or restored; which may not be the utmost importance to you, but to the purist and professional restorer these cars are the holy grail. LV's COPO that sold yesterday is a great example. Just for your information many survivor cars have been thrashed and have well over 100K miles, but they are well preserved and for the most part unrestored. I will send you the guidelines that our program Vintage Camaro subscribe to, and I recommend visiting the Bloomington, or the NCRS site as you may come away enlightened. BTW I drive the snot out of my survivor cars. They are like driving in a time capsule back in the 60's. Yes they are great cars warts and all. <img src="https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...eers.gif" alt="" /> |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
every make of every car has a benchmark they can go by,just go to any car museum.
as far as Bloomington,i was speaking in generalities,and did say there were examples that did amaze me like the 100k example you mentioned. i feel Bloomington doesnt exist for the majority,and i cant really take it seriously. still just my opinion. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
every make of every car has a benchmark they can go by,just go to any car museum. as far as Bloomington,i was speaking in generalities,and did say there were examples that did amaze me like the 100k example you mentioned. i feel Bloomington doesnt exist for the majority,and i cant really take it seriously. still just my opinion. [/ QUOTE ] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Are you talking about the 61 corvette with 136,000 miles that received a NCRS survivor award??
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
HAHA I guess I named the topic wrong. I was just posting the original FS ad.
I wouldn't have a clue if this car was 100% correct,that's what you guys are here for. Ok yeah stuff is wrong,but having the ORIGINAL VIN stamped drivetrain overrides all that. Overall this car is worth restoring IMO. That's all. Now my take on "survivor". IMO that means all original. No paint no parts no nothing. Good luck finding that. So this car is not a survivor.But it is close. The numbers are real,so that overrides the repaint,incorrret carpet clip,and wrong valve stem cap on the driver side rear. That's nothing. It's not a back halved rebodied fake Yenko clone. It is what it is. And somebody will appreciate it for that. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I see prices have returned to earth. Nice car. Priced about right. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif [/ QUOTE ] Not sure you can base that on this car. The car is obviously NOT a survivor. Has incorrect paint, hood, grill, incorrect ride height/springs and many missing/incorrect pieces under the hood. No information regarding documentaion, and is low option car. Not trying to bash this car, but it is neither a survivor or concours restored car. What do you think this would have been worth a year ago? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif [/ QUOTE ] Steve, Lets focus my comments to exactly what I was referring to. Since 2004 There have been numerous examples for sale where the seller was asking large dollars for cars that were claimed to be original with LOTS of stuff that was very clearly wrong. Since then there have been more examples of cars that should have been heavily critiqued on Camaro web sites but essentially got a "pass" because while the car was not perfect- the asking price was still good and high. This allows others that are vested in these values to speculate up the price on better cars through comparison with the high priced yet vastly inferior examples. Despite this, the prices asked for these cars along with the rest of the 20,000 made in 1969 were hyped to levels that the market could clearly not sustain over the long term. The car discussed in this thread looks to be an honest car that would appear to still have its original engine and is fairly priced (for a change). This fact is no small feat by its self. It is that simple. Car is not perfect but the asking price is not $70K either. My comments had and have zero to do with the car as a "survivor" (as the term) is currently used by the NCRS or for Camaro judging criteria. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif Phil |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
can somebody please explain the "wrong grill"? Its the first time I've heard that about my car.
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Your orig grill did not "survive".Your grill should be silver. The replacement one for years have been black.
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
[ QUOTE ]
What does the X mean? Todd [/ QUOTE ] I believe they pre marked the x codes ( ie, x 7 telling the line workers the car was to be an x77 non style trim group ) before the cars went down the assembly line. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see prices have returned to earth. Nice car. Priced about right. <img src="https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mpup.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>
Not sure you can base that on this car. The car is obviously NOT a survivor. Has incorrect paint, hood, grill, incorrect ride height/springs and many missing/incorrect pieces under the hood. No information regarding documentaion, and is low option car. Not trying to bash this car, but it is neither a survivor or concours restored car. What do you think this would have been worth a year ago? <img src="https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...unno.gif" alt="" /> </div></div> Steve, Lets focus my comments to exactly what I was referring to. Since 2004 There have been numerous examples for sale where the seller was asking large dollars for cars that were claimed to be original with LOTS of stuff that was very clearly wrong. Since then there have been more examples of cars that should have been heavily critiqued on Camaro web sites but essentially got a "pass" because while the car was not perfect- the asking price was still good and high. This allows others that are vested in these values to speculate up the price on better cars through comparison with the high priced yet vastly inferior examples. Despite this, the prices asked for these cars along with the rest of the 20,000 made in 1969 were hyped to levels that the market could clearly not sustain over the long term. The car discussed in this thread looks to be an honest car that would appear to still have its original engine and is fairly priced (for a change). This fact is no small feat by its self. It is that simple. Car is not perfect but the asking price is not $70K either. My comments had and have zero to do with the car as a "survivor" (as the term) is currently used by the NCRS or for Camaro judging criteria. <img src="https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...hmmm.gif" alt="" /> Phil </div></div> Your quote "I see prices have returned to earth. Nice car. Priced about right. <img src="https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mpup.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]" My point as stated is that the price for this car has not changed or "come down to earth", because this car has been worth same for the last couple of years. I disagree with your statement and I specified why this car was not worth 75k plus because it was not a survivor or a concours restored car. Regarding your quote: "This allows others that are vested in these values to speculate up the price on better cars through comparison with the high priced yet vastly inferior examples. Despite this, the prices asked for these cars along with the rest of the 20,000 made in 1969 were hyped to levels that the market could clearly not sustain over the long term." Regarding your quote: "My comments had and have zero to do with the car as a "survivor" (as the term) is currently used by the NCRS or for Camaro judging criteria." Again my original use of the term survivor and concours was to point out this car was neither hence the 40K asking price. Now follow-up posts were made regarding the survivor term and I was clarifying its definition. If you read my post I think most people got my point. As you know accurate decriptions and classifications of cars is critical as stated in my previous post. <img src="https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...eers.gif" alt="" /> |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Steve,
Can open, Worms Everywhere. Who died and made you Camaro God? Why is it YOUR standard is what you feel everyone else has to go by? I personally think that it is INSANE that someone would pay 95,000.00 for a piece of metal tag that has an "X-77" on it, with a non original 350 in it, but has every bolt marked with original stamps. I PERSONALLY think that this Z, with no X code, but the original driveline is the better choice, for far less money. As far as the vette crowd goes, I don't see you advocating restamped engines. In the vette world and judging I am to understand that this is an "accepted" practice. I have said it, and I will again, the only difference between a 69 COPO and a 69 6-banger is the driveline/suspension. Same Body. Give me this Z anyday. As far as the LM1 cars and 70 COPO Z's, they are what "I" like. I could care less about what your opinion is, and your silly trailer queen certification process. I drive my cars, I don't worship em. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Geez Rich - might want to take walk next time b4 typing! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif
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Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Ok gentlemen, as an outsider looking in I have a few thoughts on the matter.
First this all started with a word called Survivor. Survivor in this case means it is still alive. Survivor in the judging of camaros is a term to describe a mostly all original as it left the factory car. paint, parts, etc. The term should be changed I think to something like unrestored with original factory born parts or something to the liking. Some people drive em, some show em and alot in between, we shouldn't judge the person based on those facts. If the guy sells the car for 40 then it was a good price if not it wasn't and leave it at that. Survival of the fittest always rules, Like LV's COPO - gone in 60 seconds. |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Just gettin tired of the hypocrisy.
What did this thread have to do with LM1’s and 70 Z COPO’s? Everyone has different aspects that they like and dislike about this hobby. Of course people are going to get excited about the things that they like, and especially those cars that they own. I can respect that some guys like cars that they can make “perfect” even though none came from the factory that “perfect”. Yes, I might be “hyping” the 69 LM1, but nothing I say is false. It is me promoting what I like, and sharing with others who like the same cars. Steve is doing the same thing with his “certification”. That’s cool. It might not be my thing, but I can respect the opinion he has in his own way for his aspect of this hobby. Why attack Phil and I for what we like? Finally, back to this Z. Again and again, we see over restored Z’s COPO’s etc. These cars in many cases were run and run hard/ put away wet. Most do not have original drivelines. This is what made a “Z” a “Z”. I don’t know this guy, or this car. BUT by the pictures, it seems to be what “I” would rather call a survivor. It’s got the most important part, the heart and soul if you will, of the Z-28 package. IMO, more so than a car that has sat in a barn for 30 years with a blown up engine and now has a 010 block built and put into it. That’s like giving Einstein a lobotomy and calling him a genius! |
Re: 69 Z-28 survivor
Steve,
All I did was say it was a nice car and a fair price. You then decided to reply taking the topic of my exceedingly simple comment in a different direction by focusing on the seller's choice of words in the ad and thus framing an opinion around that. That is OK, just remember I am entitled to reply to your comments. As far as my opinion goes on prices for '69 Z28's - auction results tell the whole story of where prices are, were and when. It is what it is. This car has its original engine and is still fairly priced. I am not going personal and off topic with respect to your other comments against myself (and Rich) as it is non-productive and contributes nothing factual to the thread being discussed. I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it. Please provide the same respect to me and others who may choose to disagree. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif |
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