#CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

how much would you be able to sell a L88 427BBC running long block for ?? . there's a member over @ nastyz28 trying to figure out it's worth .the casting #'s are #3963512 and the pad #'s are #CE172383 he's thinking he could get $12K for it

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Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Does it have the 074 aluminum heads? If so, what date are they? My guess would be $6-7000.
James

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

what do the numbers after "CE" mean?
#CE172383 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
what do the numbers after "CE" mean?
#CE172383 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

over the counter GM crate engine

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does it have the 074 aluminum heads? If so, what date are they? My guess would be $6-7000.
James

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm going to get some pics emailed to me from the seller ,supposed to be about 50 pics . i was told it does have factory aluminum cylinder heads more than likely they're the #074 heads

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

It depends on the casting date and casting numbers. NCRS would welcome an engine like that in a car if the casting dates are before (six months) and the casting numbers are correct for the car. If it is an early '69 casting number, it won't work in a '67 L88, but would probably be fine in a '69 L88. If it is cast in late '69, it may be too late for most L88's, even a 1969 L88. This would impact the value. NCRS would judge the pad broach, assembly stamp, VIN stamp, casting date, and casting number. If all but the assembly stamp and VIN stamp are wrong, the car could still achieve a Top Flight easily. Bloomington, on the other hand, would not allow anything higher than a Silver. If the dates and numbers will work for a true '67, '68, or '69 L88, its value should be at least that as long as the correct components are there.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

The numbers after "CE" (Chevrolet Engine),stand for the year installed,and then the sequence number it was installed in rotation...i.e.CE172383:
1=Last digit of the year installed,,1971 in this case.
72383=Tonawanda sequence number.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
If it is cast in late '69, it may be too late for most L88's, even a 1969 L88. This would impact the value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain why it would 'impact the value' in more detail?
I ask as I have one, a CE, that fits this latter suggestion...a K-4-9 date on the Block.
Wouldnt mine fit any warranty so long as it was present to be fitted into somone's vette? by the dealer?
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Most folks want a block that has a casting date that is prior to the build date of their car. NCRS will deduct quite a few points if the car was built in October with a November cast block. With your block being cast in November of 1969, there are fewer 1969 L88's that would be eligble to handle your engine with no penalty for a block cast after the car was built.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
If it is an early '69 casting number, it won't work in a '67 L88, but would probably be fine in a '69 L88.

[/ QUOTE ] Since the block is a CE stamp, an early 69 dated 512 would be a good match for a 67 L88 car. CE motors could have been installed 3 years after the date of the car[not the build date of the car but the sale date which could be several months after the build date in addition to the 3 year warranty period]..If ncrs accepts CE block,yet expects the date to preceed the car or allows more points when it does , they arent being realistic.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

I don't know if their being realistic, but the criteria says that all dates should precede the build date of the car. They don't make any mention of CE blocks in judging manuals and they really don't treat a CE block any differently than a bare pad on a block. They judge five critical items pertaining to the engines; the casting number (350 points), the casting date (175 points), the broach on the stamp pad (38 points), the VIN derivative (25 points), and the engine assembly stamp (25 points). Forty five points equals one percentage point, so if your casting number is not correct for your car, you're at a Second Flight right out of the gate. It's important to know that if you put a 1969 L88 motor in a 1967 L88, your going to receive severe deductions whether it's a CE block or a block with nothing on the pad. You can argue to a judge all day long about how the original owner of the car told you that the engine was lost under warranty, you can even have paperwork to document this. The bottom line is that casting number, casting date, broach, VIN stamp, and assembly stamp are the only thing that determines the point deduction, not the CE designation, if any, on a block. It's a very easy judging process that allows for an owner of a car without an original engine to find a nearly correct engine and have a car that can Top Flight.

I owned a car with the original engine and the pad was lightly radial decked during a rebuild before I owned the car. This was a 25 point deduction in judging since all the other elements were correct. NCRS viewed this about the same as if my radio didn't work. It's important to know that if any of the five critical items are out of line at Bloomington Gold judging, the car is only eligible to receive a Silver Certificate no matter how well the car judges. They call it "Boxing" the car because these items are in a box on the judging sheets.

You're better off with a blank pad than a CE block, in my opinion.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Although CE coded GM warranty blocks are a perfectly legitimate part of the history and purchase agreement between a new owner and General Motors they are treated like any other non original block by most, if not all, top level judging ctiteria and clubed like a baby seal. To put it bluntly we hold the POP warranty book in the highest regard when authenticating a vehicle but give ZERO consideration to the contents contained in it. From an historical perspective it seems to be a disservice to the TRUE heritage of these examples fitted with GM CE warranty blocks or other components likewise covered under the original GM purchase agreement. The logic that a CE block would be better suited for judging criteria if dated prior to the vehicles build date just exemplifies the injustice. Or in my own words ignorance.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

It's not an injustice, it just chronicle order.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

I understand the idealistic approach to the judging guidlines. My question is it "true" to the heritage of the vehicle and manufacturer's intentions? As a follow up question should a warranty component therefore be judged in the same capacity as a "restoration" component?

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

If I'm reading this right, you are saying that you are better off with a decked restamped correct date engine than a warranty replacement engine. I guess this is why I read about the Corvette guys not having a problem with restamped blocks.
James

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

If im reading this right, you are better off when bringing a car to the ncrs to have a correct dated impala stamped block in a corvette than a correct CE block that happens to be later than the car[which is usually how they came]...doesnt make any sense at all..

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

How many legitimate, documented CE block cars are out there in reality? Probably very few. Where do the exceptions stop?
Do you think that if there was an exception made for a CE block that CE blocks would be forged? I certainly do. This seems logical since they use the "master pad library" to help verify the legitimacy of an engine and a CE block would have really no reference. It would be easier to stamp a CE block with a number than to stamp the VIN and assembly derivative on the pad. Cars are judged to a standard of "as delivered from the factory" not as delivered from the dealer or as delivered after warranty work from the dealer. CE blocks are not as delivered from the factory.
By the way, Corvette guys do have a problem with restamped motors. They are a fact of life, but if you buy a car professed to be an unstamped block and it turns out to be one, that's a problem in my book. If you know going in that it's a restamped block, then that's fine. It may have a problem in judging, though.
I personally like the system the way it is, I'd have no problem buying a nice car with a CE block and even having it judged. I'd accept the points penalty while having it judged at NCRS or at Bloomington and live with the result. I'd rather the present system not be diluted. As much as I love Baldwin/Motion cars, bring one for judging and see what happens.
Your CE block could have ended up in a boat just as well as a Corvette. Yes, a correct casting number and correct casting date Impala 427 would be well received for judging in a Corvette I think that would be neat and I could live with that.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, a correct casting number and correct casting date Impala 427 would be well received for judging in a Corvette I think that would be neat and I could live with that.


[/ QUOTE ] While there may not always be proof a CE motor came in a specific car, an Impala 427 has no chance of ever being installed in a corvette. The problem is people will bring the ncrs whatever it is that they desire. I personally know of two local guys ,one had a double stamped vin on his one owner 64 300HP car, the other had a 63 corvette where the vin on the engine and trans were one character off. BOTH guys took those original parts out of thier cars and restamped what the ncrs said was acceptable . Thats the ridiculous part.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, a correct casting number and correct casting date Impala 427 would be well received for judging in a Corvette I think that would be neat and I could live with that.


[/ QUOTE ] While there may not always be proof a CE motor came in a specific car, an Impala 427 has no chance of ever being installed in a corvette. The problem is people will bring the ncrs whatever it is that they desire. I personally know of two local guys ,one had a double stamped vin on his one owner 64 300HP car, the other had a 63 corvette where the vin on the engine and trans were one character off. BOTH guys took those original parts out of thier cars and restamped what the ncrs said was acceptable . Thats the ridiculous part.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I am so glad that I enjoy driving my Chevelle...and that I don't worry about the trivial stuff...LOL https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

The NCRS group that I’ve been a member of for nearly 20 years would never recommend or encourage anyone to destroy a valuable and original piece of history to make it conform to a judging manual. I’ve judged and had judged many cars and it’s just not the case. I’ve presented for judging cars with extremely low miles and amazing originality that have factory anomalies. Sometimes I’ve been docked points, sometimes not.
My 1965 16,000 mile 250 horse powerglide coupe built three days before the end of production had lots of strange things including a severely ground pad. The engine was, I believe, originally destined for a manual transmission car, but was ground and stamped for an automatic. The carburetor was coded for a manual transmission and I wouldn’t change it because it was the original dated unit. The penalty was 12 points and the judges told me not to change it as they felt it was original. I gladly took the hit. The engine passed with flying colors and is used in Al Grennings “strange but true” seminar. I’d recommend attending his seminar to see what NCRS will view as acceptable and reasonable. They are truly a great organization and a knowledgeable group of supportive people. I brought a very late 1968 Corvette for judging and it has a 1969 “pebble” type housing around the center gauges. Certainly not correct, but I wouldn’t change it. I later verified its originality by looking at an original owner ’68 Survivor that was a few cars earlier with the same “pebble” housing. I was glad I didn’t change it.

P.S. Both of the cars you noted would fly through Flight Judging with a 25 point deduction for the stamping items.
That's the same deduction that they would receive if a cigarette lighter didn't work. I don't think that validates the cost of restamping a motor.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Just out of curiosity, why is "any old POP book" OK?

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

The judging manual just calls for the contents of the glove box to include delivery items including the plastic pouch, owners manual, jacking instructions, radio instructions, Warranty Plate and any other items that may be year specific. Since most folks don't have their original Warranty Plate, a repop or one from another car will work with no point deduction. You can even use the booklet with no metal card in it. Their pretty easy going on this. They just don't like it when you borrow it from your friends car that was just judged.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Is this a CE restamp?

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a CE restamp?

[/ QUOTE ]

it looks nothing like mine!

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Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it is an early '69 casting number, it won't work in a '67 L88, but would probably be fine in a '69 L88.

[/ QUOTE ] Since the block is a CE stamp, an early 69 dated 512 would be a good match for a 67 L88 car. CE motors could have been installed 3 years after the date of the car[not the build date of the car but the sale date which could be several months after the build date in addition to the 3 year warranty period]..If ncrs accepts CE block,yet expects the date to preceed the car or allows more points when it does , they arent being realistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am in full agreement of this statement!

Wouldnt the warranty run of cores fulfill cars made, or maybe just 25% of the actual engines made.

As well, Chevrolet offering these motors as shortblocks for sale to the public at the dealership.

I would assume GM assembled warranty and public purchase units to the build of an L88 in 69 as the run was allowed prior to release.

I was just looking at it the same way Chuck does here.
I just felt that any CE block followed the release GM gave, during and after the cars were offered.

Thus my intention was of the thought my K-4-9 block followed the run made.
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Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

NCRS does not treat CE blocks any different than any block. The casting number must be correct for the year of the car and the casting date must be before the build date of the car to avoid a point deduction, period. If you have a '67 big block Corvette, the casting number needs to be 3904351. A 512 block would receive a 350 point deduction if it had CE stamped on it or if it had JE (435 horse L71 motor). They don't care if the motor was replaced by GM under warranty two years after the sale of the car or not. If you had a warranty motor that was replaced in a '67 Corvette six months after it was purchased and the block carried the 3904351 part number, but the casting date was three months after the build date, you receive a 175 point deduction. There is no special treatment for a CE block or a block with no stamping at all.
It's a very simple and fair set up. I'd be upset if some guy showed up with a '69 Corvette with a block dated one year after the build date of the car (CE block) and he received the same lack of deduction as my original engine '69 Corvette.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

I might be wrong but under the current judging standards would a warrany CE block not be considered second tier to a correctly dated restoration block with a non conforming block pad? I don't think anyone is advocating the CE should be excluded from conventional judging standards as it is obviously a non original component. We can leave that can of worms to the block restamping industry. What would be the detrimental impact of embracing the reality of the CE block and incorporating its specific characteristics into judging standards? I believe it would bring some nice examples to the show field. Under current conditions why waste the time and energy?

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

That's a good point (about bringing out CE blocks that would receive nearly a 600 point deduction). A CE block would only receive the points for the broach being present if everything else was too late for the car. With a 575 point decutcion, a car could, at best receive a Second Flight .
That would be a chore for those that revise the judging manual. I don't know how they'd reward a documented CE block, or if true documentation of one is possible.
I'd love to see a true CE block car show up, if nice car, I'd like to see it do well in judging.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's a good point (about bringing out CE blocks that would receive nearly a 600 point deduction). A CE block would only receive the points for the broach being present if everything else was too late for the car. With a 575 point decutcion, a car could, at best receive a Second Flight .

[/ QUOTE ] This is exactly the point why guys with legitimate CE cars pull them out and restamp them. Its not just the ncrs,people will do whatever gets them the most points at a national show. Certainly if someone starts out with a motor that wont allow them to top flight ,thats the first thing they will address .

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
The casting number must be correct for the year of the car and the casting date must be before the build date of the car to avoid a point deduction, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmmm....
Hhmmmm!

As I am reading this, you are Specifically pointing out (NCRS) Judging only.
A 351 block in a 67 Vette must have a preceding build/casted date repalcement CE Block.
Now, Why is this original block being replaced by a previously assembled engine?
OK, maybe an engine failure prior to shipment, maybe.
Seems logical.
However, I still stand to Chuck's pointe that a latter date code should be valid, and why not???!!!!!!
Does the dealer actually look for a previously date coded replacement block back in 67?
NO!
They will replace it with the appropriate GM authorized unit, and one that is available to either be shipped for installation at the Chevrolet dealer, or with the appropriate unit, either at that dealership, or one from a local dealership in the vicinity.
Tell me, how many of these CE blocks did they have to choose from back in 1967?

I find it hard to believe that a natural order of preselection occurred back then, but maybe there were shortblocks sitting ready to be used.
But how available was that 351 Block in, for example, in Flagstaff, Arizona...when the engine let go?
Did the Chevrolet dealer or division hunt down a previously dated 351 CE L88 specifically for this car?
How many 351 CE L88s were in that vicinity?

I am suggesting only that the following CE stamped and coded L88 was assembled as a warranty replacement or as an over the counter unit for sale to the public.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Add to that point that there were NO CE 3904351 engines and you really have a dilemma. They didnt start using the CE stamping until 68. 66 and 67 replacement factory motors were blank pad stamps.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Bottom line, like it or not, is that the engine casing in a car presented for judging must carry the correct casting for the year and application of the car. The casting date must be before the assembly date of the car. As I've said, they don't care if CE is on the pad or not. If NCRS wanted to provide some point break for a CE block with some dealer paperwork to verify its existence, that's fine. But right now, they don't. This is the judging system for all components of a Corvette from the jack to the windshield. The '68 L89 that Charley and I owned had a passenger side window that was two months after the build date of the car. The power window mechanism scratched the window and it was replaced under warranty. The window was penalized when I presented the car for Flight judging. No way should that have been allowed to judge without penalty, just like a replacement block. I don't believe that NCRS ever will allow anything close to full points for a CE block placed in a car that has the incorrect casting date and number. It's not Typical Factory Production (TFP). That's the guide. It's not a perfect system, but it is a good system that I like.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

TimG wrote:
"the engine casing in a car presented for judging must carry the correct casting for the year and application of the car. The casting date must be before the assembly date of the car. As I've said, they don't care if CE is on the pad or not. If NCRS wanted to provide some point break for a CE block with some dealer paperwork to verify its existence, that's fine. But right now, they don't. This is the judging system for all components of a Corvette"

I STILL find it hard to believe that a natural order of preselection occurred back then!

And once again, you are basing this solely on NCRS judging, ONLY!
In the real time of what occured back in the day, this process should not match your judging approach!
Looks to me as if you need your NCRS boys to rethink this out.

I still think this goes back to what Chuck suggested:
That , for example, in 1969, a 512 Block was made throughout the Chevroelt run, then it is feasable to locate such a Block with this casting # and date code of casting around a particular car's build.
Pick any 512 Block casted prior to your build date, whether the MN code existed or an IT existed, then you are saying it's correct.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

May I ask a question here for the purpose of clarification?
What would be the difference between an L72 long block and an L88 if both are stamped CE? Since we are talking about a long block, I assume that it is an assembled unit, 512 casting, and unless you break it down, no way to indentify the rotating asembly numbers. If you put 840 heads on it, would it then become an L72? The CE stamped motor in my Camaro has 990 heads on it. Does that make it an L88? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
I have never been involved in judging anything, so I'm just curious. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

------Tim is telling you what standards one club judges to. NCRS has always said that this is their format. They have never wavered. Im not a big NCRS proponent but basicly they are saying "if you dont like our game, go play in another sandbox". The "natural order of preselection" didnt exist back then, but NCRS doesnt care. They judge to a standard, and they have somewhere around 40,000 members so someone must adhere to their standards of judging. Im trying to say in the nicest way possible, get over it!.........Bill S

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Andy,

As you know, the L-88 had unique high domed pistons ( 12:1 I believe ),
I don't think those pistons would work with
the standard '840 heads unless we are talking early L-88.
I thought early L-88's used a differernt block than the
'512. I need to re-read this thread! I think I turned
left while it went to the right.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you dont like our game, go play in another sandbox

[/ QUOTE ] You are exactly right. I will have to say though,the reason so many 67 roadsters are restamps is because owners know they cant get a top score unless they do so. My only problem is that if i had a real 435 that had the wrong motor ,id get out scored by a guy with an original 300HP car that had a correctly restamped 435 in it

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

I STILL find it hard to believe that a natural order of preselection occurred back then!

You're correct, it was a crude form of inventory, crude as it was, they didn't put an engine cast in 1968 in a Corvette that was built in 1967. I think that you'd agree that the parts of a car have to be built before the car was built and sold to a customer. That's what they look at, that's what they judge.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

[ QUOTE ]

I STILL find it hard to believe that a natural order of preselection occurred back then!

You're correct, it was a crude form of inventory, crude as it was,


"they didn't put an engine cast in 1968 in a Corvette that was built in 1967. I think that you'd agree that the parts of a car have to be built before the car was built and sold to a customer."

[/ QUOTE ]

"they didn't put an engine cast in 1968 in a Corvette that was built in 1967."
Unless it was under warranty and was replaced at the dealer in a following year.

So again, if it was damaged during and before delivery to the dealership by the factory, then you might possibly recieve one close enough or following the build date by the GM factory to support your Judging Book.

Re: #CE L88 427BBC long block value
 

Hello, I just took a NOS crate L88 short block to a local machine shop to have a sanity check done on it and right out of the crate the crank was .001 under with std. bearings, the cam bolts were in finger tight, and the block needed decked. It would have launched had I installed it. Larry.