Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

I looked at a Tuxedo Black on Black LS6 yesterday. In storage 13 years last reg in 81. M-22 4sp, bench seat, real code 19 Chevelle. Extremely rust free original: floors, body panels, doors, cowl flapper hood, 837 alt, 811 WP, Harrison radiator. Looks to have it's original deep grove pulleys and fan, Frame is perfect. Correct tach, Malibu door panel emblems. Checks out to be all numbers matching with the exception of the carb, intake and dist. Docs could be in the car but as it stands "no docs". Pad is stamped T0403CRV, 12 bolt is stamped 0408 hard to read ratio, trans is stamped P0A13C w/vin. The vin on the block is stamped by the oil filter. Is that strange for an 04D built LA car. Seams late to have a vin stamped there.

What do you think it's worth as is and after a frame off and how bad does "no" docs hurt it?

I ask for a couple of reasons. One, I need to know and two, I've been advised that with the vin stamped by the oil filter and no docs the car will never be worth more than a clone and currently only worth the value of it's parts. Do others agree? That got me to thinking, which is never a good thing. If that's the case I find that very disappointing for a couple of reasons. No one could look at this car in it's current condition and doubt for a second that it's the real deal. However after restoration no one will have that degree of certainty. Not to get involved in a discussion about the moral and ethical questions of considering the financial aspects of a car deal but for me that's a fact I have to consider. I was hoping to do a frame off on the car. However, if clone value is all the money for this car that makes it very hard to do. What's a clone worth 40K-45Kmax. With the cost of parts, services + 4-500hrs labor that = a money pit. That would be to bad because this is a real deal black LS6 that needs to be done but It would be hard for anyone to put 65K+ in a car only worth 45K. With all the fake docs floating around, are the docs on a car like this so important that the lack of them kills the value of the car. I want to do this car but......

I've attached a few pics


Thanks in advance for your input
Rick
http://katyclassiccars.com/blackls6/dscf2947.jpg

http://katyclassiccars.com/blackls6/dscf2944.jpg

http://katyclassiccars.com/blackls6/dscf2940.jpg

http://katyclassiccars.com/blackls6/dscf2943.jpg

http://katyclassiccars.com/blackls6/dscf2952.jpg

http://katyclassiccars.com/blackls6/dscf2953.jpg

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

My take is always this.. A Well done car is a Well done car.. Quality always brings good money.. do the car right and someone will always want to pay the money.. Clones are taking nice money these days.. but only when done right IMO... this one, would not be a Clone.. so...if you can buy it at a good price ( that word good is for you to decide ) go ahead and Frame Off the car and document every step. Save the car!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif No to mention, could easily be a Build Sheet in tehre.. might even consider asking teh owner if you can look?? Give him a $100 to let ya look https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Mike Crown

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Personally I would not invest that kind of time and money in a car without paperwork.Yes,there is bogus documentation out there and you need to be careful,but if you were looking to spend six figures+ for a done LS6 would you consider one without any?.
I just think there is an air of uncertainty as to the direction of the collector car market currentely,the costs or restoration will continue to rise but are we in a mild correction,or downtrend?. I would negotiate with the seller and lock up the car with a deposit,sale contingent on finding some paper-nice bones but short of that it can't be validated and that stigma will haunt it,jmho

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Paperwork? I dig that innovative carb gasket. What year newspaper is that? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
Looks like an interesting project either way.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

i love cars in this condition! unrestored non-drivers seem to be rarer than there restored counterparts. between the Dana car and this LS6 thats a couple of very cool musclecars that you dont get to see in this condition very often.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Clean it up, straighten out the mess under the hood, and drive it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

But seriously, love the as found look. VIN on the block by the oil filter is definitely 70 Van Nuys built.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif
Are you able to read the partial VIN by the oil filter?

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Don't be too sure in your deduction that it is the real thing-- That car looks to have been ridden hard and put away wet, and is missing the correct shifter, etc... Also, check out the wear on the clutch pedal-- Make sure the mileage matches the pedals, as the pedals are the biggest tell-tale sign of all if a car is the real thing or not as far as matching the odo..

Don't forget that the LS-6 was a premier car back in the day, and was so to second-hand buyers as well; 10 or so years gives the car time to fall into the wrong hands, where it could have received parts from another car, etc... The VIN is convincing, but your right about the lack of docs, as anyone can put the VIN there these days. My brother and I used to do the same with Trans-Ams; there's more than one car that we transplanted the entire running gear, including radiator and alt, from one to another.

Your best bet is to give the person the $100 for right of first refusal. It may not even cost you that much-- I did that with an old German car, and it proved to be the best thing I ever did. Think of it this way-- If your heart got the best of you and you paid what this crazy market makes people think stuff is worth, and it turned out to be bogus, it would cost you much more than $100.

Just my $.02...

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

What is a real Black Ls6 with an M22 worth? 125k?
You would have to just document the hell everything possible when restoring the car... I do not know very much about the Chevelle's but I am sure someone will chime in on the VIN location on the engine... also I do believe it is fairly common to find build sheets in Chevelles... do not knowabout LA assembled cars though...

If it is the real deal (and from first observations it does appear to be) obviously having 65k in it completed would be a steal...

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Oh yeah, and if you find out after you dig in that it is the real thing and the price is right, you just scored...

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Buy It !!! before some one else does !!! I'm interested if Your not

Jim https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Yea I am interested in it as well... it would look SWEET next to the Black 69 Z... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Sweet for sure.
I think her pedals are worn too much so she is not real. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gifTruth is her pedals are so worn because her miles were 1/4 at a time.
Papers, look at her and close your eyes then open them and you are back in the mid 70's. Anyone that had one of these cars back then will know where I am coming from. I got goose bumps looking at these pictures. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif That engine compartment was mine as well as most of the real deal ls-6's back then.Suprise many of todays trailor queens looked like this also in the day.She was a true road warrior driven the way she was made to. PS removed, headers installed,intake and carb replaced, dist, accel super coil, Holly fuel pump reg and pump in rear,mr gasket two piece wing nuts, moroso solid mounts.Where is the line lock and moroso cool can???
Radio taken out to save weight and to stop you from busting your hand when it slid off the shifter, which was the first thing you changed. Original shifter boot and ring however to remain.
Look at the side tail pipes like we all had for quick removal at the strip.
Boy if she could talk the stories she could tell. She is worth restoring for that alone.
Will she bring 125K probally not without papers regardless of the fact she is more real than many of the so called documented ones.Will you lose on her with 65 to 70 invested never especially if you totally document her restoration.
Her sister sits about 25 miles from me also black m22 bench.I thought it was long gone but found it in just the last year. It has been sitting 25 years.If it comes up for sale papers or not I will have it since I am not into them for the investment.Break even is fine.
Good Luck but I would not sit on this now that the word is out https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Thanks for the comments.

The VIN is easily readable even on my back with one eye closed holding a flash light in my mouth.

I think the chances of this car being in this condition and being a re-stamp or a created LS6 is remote at best. There's no speedo cable so in my mind mileage on the OD is irrelevant. If I'm reading the clutch peddle pad correctly (as shown in the picture) and I may not be as I'm new at clutch peddle pad reading it looks to me to be as worn-out as the rest of the car. I guess that's a good thing.

The car is going nowhere as I have locked up right of first refusal. My interest in the car is very high maybe too high. When I feel like this about a car I sometimes, ok always pay to much. I've been contacted by a number of members expressing an interest in the car. However, I'm not trying to sell a car I don't own, I'm trying to buy a car I don't own. I'll worry about selling/restoring later. The seller is not a car guy but suffers from a slight case of barrettjacksonitis. So, what's it worth.

Thanks

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

A Black LS-6 similarly equipped but with a TH400 just sold for 80K a few weeks ago.Down from it's higher asking price,but fully restored w/Buildsheet,docs & photo history.
I know of a M-22 similarly equipped restored twin to yours that can be bought for 95K,with no takers right this very moment.

If you are looking for possible pedigree,besides the buildsheet,I'd aim for that rear axle tube suffix if the rear looks authentic to you and was never out.That Top hose,shroud,cover & tank say 4:10 to me,which spells solid liftered engine only.
I would also do a past owner search,especially if it's from your neck of the woods as it would be most convenient for you then for anyone else farther away.
If none of what I just mentioned pans out,I really don't think you will be as upside down on the car as you think when done,judging by the quality of work you've done in the past.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Personaly after just restoring my 70 L78 that I have owned for 25 years I can honestly say that I would never spend the 8 months full time on restoring a car without documents.
Remember if its a a hobby your looking for to restore a car
and spend all that time and lots of money, then in my humble opinion by a project with documents,documents,documents.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
PJ

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

I would drop the fuel tank, the LA plant frequently put build sheets on the top drivers side. Hopefully moisture and rodents have not destroyed it.

Paul

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would drop the fuel tank, the LA plant frequently put build sheets on the top drivers side. Hopefully moisture and rodents have not destroyed it.

I agree with Paul, both LA LS6's I owned had build sheets on the tank.
Bruce

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

That is an area of concern,but I wouldn't exclude other areas over it.
I found a Van Nuys sheet under the package tray jute.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

If the seller is asking"real money" for the car then I would ask to do a little digging for a build sheet. You find it, you buy the car. It would be different if the car were cheap and you could buy it and make out well build sheet or not.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

First impressions are everything !! Anyone who had one of these cars in the 70's did just what was done to this car Drove it !! Streetraced it and raced it on Sunday ! There weren't cruise nights like today, People didn't clone these cars like today, car shows catered to the tri fives and older. This is a perfect example of a car that was just put out of mind and left with the thought I'll fix it one day. Then came girls, family , houses, tuitions and so on. I am willing to bet anyone, anything from what I've seen its Dead Nuts Real !!
My 70 LS-6 hardtop was dressed in the same fashion
TM2R intake,stager jetted 4492 holley, carb heat sheild,valley tray, Holley pump out back, regulator on the inner fender, fuel pressure gauge, Cool can, Mickey Thomson 2into2into1 scavenger headers, Lunati cam,Balanced and Bluprinted bottom end,Moroso 8 quart pan, roller rockers,Accel dual point with point retard, MSD6 box, Malory coil and rev limiter,underdrive pulleys, alternator field cutout, M/T valve covers with pan evacuation,oil cooler, 2800 convertor, Fairbanks reverse manual valvebody TH400, 4:56 gears out back, NMW upper rear control extenders, trick front springs, 90/10 shocks, ground ctl arm bushings, B&B extended lenth ball joints, riding on Cragers and M/T street slicks and I drove to High School every day, raced it every night and to the track on Sundays 11:40's with open pipes and sneakers.! 6500 shifts every day almost every shift, day in and day out !!! never hurt the #'s matching engine or rear, smoked the trans numerous times didnt hurt the case thank God!! Working part time at Steve Kaniuka's didn't hurt any either or did wrenching on a Mod Gas National Record holder on the weekends. The 70's that was when you could have serious fun with these cars and it was Just that Fun !! I wouldn't be afraid of that car everything points in the only direction real !! I can say I've looked at a couple in My time as Lead Judge for NCOA"S Unrestored Class for Years, Owned way to many and worked on I can't remember all of them !! Buy it !!! Enough said

Jim https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif
If I can find My photo album I'll post the picts and theres a picture of My car Fathom Blue , White top, stripes and bucket interior leaving the line at Cecil County dragway against Ray Allen https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif with the original owner at the wheel !! I'm looking https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

[ QUOTE ]

If I can find My photo album I'll post the picts and theres a picture of My car Fathom Blue , White top, stripes and bucket interior leaving the line at Cecil County dragway against Ray Allen https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif with the original owner at the wheel !! I'm looking https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim, What year would this have taken place?. 1970 or 1971? I would be interestd in seeing that pic. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would drop the fuel tank, the LA plant frequently put build sheets on the top drivers side. Hopefully moisture and rodents have not destroyed it.

I agree with Paul, both LA LS6's I owned had build sheets on the tank.
Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto as well - I've dropped the tanks of 6 or 7 70-72 Van Nuys A-bodies, and every one of them had the build sheet on top of the tank.

So is there an agreed-upon cutoff date in 1970 after which Van Nuys cars were no longer stamped by the oil filter on the block?

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Kevin ;
I 'll have to contact the original owner and find out He took delivery in late May of 70 at Reedmans, waited forever for the car, He's still local and still Loves to talk about the car !! Didn't see You at Cowtown yesterday.

Jim https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Didn't go to Cowtown. I'm a city guy. Us Jersey guys don't mess with Cows this far North. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

[ QUOTE ]
A Black LS-6 similarly equipped but with a TH400 just sold for 80K a few weeks ago.Down from it's higher asking price,but fully restored w/Buildsheet,docs & photo history.
I know of a M-22 similarly equipped restored twin to yours that can be bought for 95K,with no takers right this very moment.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting. Is the LS6 market in a state of flux right now? A member here just bought one off of ebay that needs a resto for just under $70K. Rick - you said that was a fair price.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Just looked back at B-J auction results for Scottsdale 2007. Several LS6 cars supposedly with matching numbers and paperwork sold in the $80k-$100K range. On Sat a 22K mile original brought $132K.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

I'm with you Jim. Papers or not when I first seen those pictures I was 17 again.In fact digging for old time slips last night.Cloning there was no such thing back then.Unfortunately the ls-6 is gone 4000 in the late 80's but I still have my ls-5 sitting since 84, like you said family, kids and home took over. Good thing is I still have a part of the history and all the original drive train.Best 1600.00 I ever spent in the mid 70's.. beers:

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

RIck,
I believe your "documentation" lies in the condition the car is in now. If someone restamped a VIN, the car would not look like it does now. It would at least be partially restored (or "fixed up"). Originality is the best documentation you can have. I'd rather spend money on a restored car with no docs but plenty of "as found" photos than one with docs and no photos of it before restoration. One could create fake docs, but no one could create that car out of thin air in the condition it's in presently. Some parts may have been swapped 20 years ago, but it wasn't done for deception. The history of the car speaks for itself.
Just my view...
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gifVerne

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

I just saw a non documented numbers match car no sale at a local auction here for 90k and we had real money on it

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

My reply was really based on the quality of work TXSS has done on his past vehicles.I think he would be ahead of the game..
As others have stated,this does not really look like a clone or misrepresented LS-6 to me either.
I have seen documented cars with fly by night poor restos bring low dollars,and non documented cars with a high degree of attention to detail & quality bring much higher dollars.
I guess this equation really begins with how much money does it take for this LS-6 to be bought from it's current owner?

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Yes Sir you are bang on. Purchase price with this one is everything.No docs could help in that area eapecially if you find them later on.Paying a fee up front and finding them will make a huge impact I would say on the original purchase price unless that can be nailed down prior to looking.Big gamble but looking at her the odds of the interior being out before, tank down etc are in your favor I would say to find a sheet but one never knows.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Thanks Rick and thanks for all the input. I agree that purchase price is/would have been the key. However, Bad news. There appears to be some question as too current ownership of the car. In fact I have been informed in no uncertain terms that because I put the car on this site I can get Fu%&ed. Long story, but better to find out now than later. That's one of major benefits of the site, it shakes out all the skeletons. I've learned a lot from the comments posted on this thread and that is a good thing. Thanks again for the comments but I'm done.

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

"because I put the car on this site I can get Fu%&ed"
Real nice did you a big favour.
PJ

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

I would not think any one could bother you as the pics you took are your personal property https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Black LS6 4sp Barn Find "Need Advice"
 

Dont listen to these guys.Buy the car and restore it because you like it and want to.enjoy it.these "enthusiast" on this site are to hardcore and need to loosen up a bit!!!!