1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

I was speaking to a knowledgeable second generation Z28 collector and the topic of 1970 vs 1971 Z28's came up. This person said that he thought comparing the two was like comparing apples to oranges. What are your thoughts and what would you consider an average price difference, if any?
BTW: I tend to agree with this person and was hoping to get other enthusiast's opinions.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Both years are great cars. I personally like the 71's better. Hate the short front seats with the headrest. I have owned 4 1971 z's & still own 3 and they are my personal favorite. Also not that concerned about the 30 horsepower loss. In 1970 there were 8,733 z28's & in 1971 there were 4,862 z28's so to me the 71 is a little rarer. This of course is my opinion!

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Unfortunately, I haven't owned either, but I don't think that the difference between 360 hp and 330 hp makes a tremendous difference. I'd take either one of them and be very happy as they are both great cars.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Both are cool/similar cars, however; there is a much bigger performance feel/difference than the stated 30hp would indicate.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Put me down for the Apple. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Isn't the '70 the more desirable of the two for reasons other than just the 30hp difference? Aren't there quite a few '70 specific features that make the car rarer and more desirable? The 12 bolt rear for one.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Here are some of the differences, I don't know if they are why the 1970 is more desirable (higher priced):
No chin spoiler in 1970
Low front seats with headrests in 1970
small rear spoiler in 1970 (except for "COPO" 1970 Camaros)
Year-specific steering wheel in 1970
Last year of the 12-bolt rear in 1970

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

The drop of two full points 11.0 to 9.0 adv in compression ratio is key. If you took a stock L78 and dropped the compression two points you would get an idea of what the difference would feel like, however it is more dramatic on the smaller 350 engine.

The low spoiler was still available in 1971 as an option.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Sounds like your trying to convince yourself one way or another which is fine. I've been looking to add a nice one for quite awhile. I think they're both good choices and investments. I think most see the 70 as the pinnacle of horsepower years and the 71 as the beginning of the end of the horsepower era. Besides that I see little to bicker about between the two. 71 could be touted as more practical as the higher octane gas is less of an issue. 70 will always be more popular I would guess. In my mind a higher end 70 vs. its equal model 71 both with docs and #'s represents approx. 30-40% difference in price.

How did the inspection of the 70 in Michigan go? Showdown car by any chance?

Good luck in the hunt.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The low spoiler was still available in 1971 as an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, my brothers 71 Z had the low spoiler. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like your trying to convince yourself one way or another which is fine. I've been looking to add a nice one for quite awhile. I think they're both good choices and investments. I think most see the 70 as the pinnacle of horsepower years and the 71 as the beginning of the end of the horsepower era. Besides that I see little to bicker about between the two. 71 could be touted as more practical as the higher octane gas is less of an issue. 70 will always be more popular I would guess. In my mind a higher end 70 vs. its equal model 71 both with docs and #'s represents approx. 30-40% difference in price.

How did the inspection of the 70 in Michigan go? Showdown car by any chance?

Good luck in the hunt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really trying to convince myself either way I was just curious to see if others agreed that the '70 was head and shoulders above the '71 in terms of desirability.

As for the '70 in Michigan: no it was not a Showdown car, it was being sold by a private party. Jack Seymour took a ride to check the car out for me and although the driveline was 90% complete and original to the car, Jack noted enough little things that were missing or in need of correction that I decided to pass.
Besides, the seller decided to keep the car and enjoy it after he re-assembled it for the sale.

So my search continues; I am in no big hurry as my wife and I really aren't ready to buy the car just yet. We are looking at making the purchase in the Spring / Summer unless the right opportunity presents itself. I thought the car in Michigan might have been that opportunity but, thanks to Jack and his knowledge of these cars I was able to keep myself from jumping at the first car that came along.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...arlisle1Lc.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...arlisle1Ld.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Carlisle1m.jpg

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Another factor to deal with is that here in St. Louis, cars 1971 and newer need to be smog tested. '70 and earlier are exempt. This has influenced my buying decisions on several cars. I don't want the hassle of historic plates with a mileage log book and can't handle the sight of an 18 year old stranger driving my car into the bay at one of our local smog inspection stations. Dodged that bullet for a long time with my 540 CID '79 Malibu until I decided to stick with cars '70 and older as long as I'm living in St. Louis.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Mark they upped the date on the smog exempt to 1980 and older as long as you put the historic plates on the car... No more inspections as well.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif Mark

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Very, very nice 22,000 Z28. I'd like to see more of that car.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Wow! great looking car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

The price difference between the 70-71 Z cars is real close. If you took two IDENTICAL colored and
Optioned Z cars you are only looking at a few thousand dollars difference. I have owned many of both
and I personally like the 71 as it is a much more comfortable car to drive and the 70 has a slight
performance advantage.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The price difference between the 70-71 Z cars is real close. If you took two IDENTICAL colored and
Optioned Z cars you are only looking at a few thousand dollars difference. I have owned many of both
and I personally like the 71 as it is a much more comfortable car to drive and the 70 has a slight
performance advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you mind explaining the comfort difference? I would think they would be identical in that respect; what is so different to make one more comfortable to drive? Is it the taller seats?

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The price difference between the 70-71 Z cars is real close. If you took two IDENTICAL colored and
Optioned Z cars you are only looking at a few thousand dollars difference. I have owned many of both
and I personally like the 71 as it is a much more comfortable car to drive and the 70 has a slight
performance advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due a few thousand dollars? more like 20K in my experience.The woods are full of very nice documented 71Z'S for 30k,whereas a like 70 would bring 50k but you rarely see correct one's availible.I think Stefano's hugger car is gorgeous,and it would be in a new home by now(probably mine)if it had paper-which is not meant to impune the car but collectors want it all these days,and aren't afraid to pony up for the right package,which is pushing these up so rapidly.Make mine an Granny Smith M22 RS COPO please!

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

The seats are much more comfortable on the later cars not just due to the shape and padding but more so the incline of the seats. You sit very upright in the '70 seats. I do favor the look of the one year only seats.

I had a '72 RS Driver Z28 Look Camaro 307 TH350 and A/C which I put about 10,000 miles on in two summers. Very comfortable car.

Here are a few familiar looking cars including a real RS/SS L78 http://greene-shipman.org/ChevyCamaro.html The copper one is the '72 I referenced .Tt sold for upper teens three/ 4 years ago. The silver RS sold at auction 4 or 5 years ago for mid teens. The L78 RS/SS sold a couple of years ago to a very wise individual, price?

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

I have nothing against 71's and would buy a correct one in a second, but I would never be willing to pay what I would for a comparable 70. There are to many important last year items that 70's have, Not sure if a 71 will ever catch a 70 in value. My two cents!!
I'll take a bushel of apples any day.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Whenever I take my car out it seems like I'm constantly asked, "is that a '70?". Nobody has ever asked if it was a '71 or '72 or whatever. I think that speaks volumes about value. For whatever the reasons, alot of people think '70's are more desirable. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Personally, I love '71's. The tall spoiler/ front spoiler and highback seats are all cool. Plus the steering wheel is neater too https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif But at the end of the day make mine an apple. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ouguysrock.gif I am fortunate to have the best of both worlds... Make Mine an Apple that looks orange-ish https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif with the big spoilers.. Lets call it a bonified 70 Z-28 RS COPO 9796 "Apple"....

71's are cool too https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif


Phil

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

One of the best, most accurately restored 71 Z's today is
the Lime(Granny Smith Apple)Green of Dennis Thomas......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...cs/ThomasD.jpg

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Great picture Chuck (nice apple), Dennis is the man when it comes to 71's heck of a nice guy also, always takes the time to answer anyones questions and most important has the right answers.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

I've been searching various sites on the Internet looking for '70 - '71 Z's for sale and have noticed quite a few "restored" cars that are missing the bumperettes on the back bumper. I thought these were standard on the second generation Z28's; is that true and these people just messed up with their restorations?

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Does anyone know of a good book that deals specifically with second generation Camaros or F-Bodies? I would like to purchase a '70-'71 Z28 or maybe even a Trans Am but want to make sure I am armed with as much information as possible.

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

No book that I know of on 2nd gen F-Body's.........such as McNeish's books on 1st Gens.......I REALLY suggest you go to www.nastyz28.com ORIGINAL Forum.....and search the archives for so much info that has been discussed over the past 3 or 4 years........

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

1996Z15, I tried Emailing you, only to have it bounce back...PLEASE Email me at [email protected]

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Not to take away from the thread but why the comparisons on the 70/71's yet the '72 Z-28 seems to be shunned in this discussion....isn't it the lowest Z-28 production other than the '67's? . I foolishly passed on a hugger orange '72 Z-28 4-spd. about a dozen years ago here in Ontario Canada. . It had been a theft recovery and the motor was gone but I bought the orig. M-22 for $200 and foolishly left the rest behind mainly because the Vin tag was damaged by what looked like a cut off saw through the w'shld. . He wouldn't sell me the rear without the rest of the car but was happy enough to let the trans go? . I was running a few other Vins through GM services Canada at the time so included this one and must still have the documents somewhere? . Don't know what ever happened to the car....may have been destroyed or found by someone else? . If anyone knows of this car, I can look up the paperwork to confirm the Vin also it may be possible to track down the orig. tranny which went into a 'Vette. ~ Pete

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Pete, Other than the probability that so few people have 72 Z-28's.......the discussion has never evolved to 1972 Z's Never been in a 72 or 73 for that matter, but I would guess performance is greatly diminished over 70/71.
A friend Eric Thompson in Missouri, has a 5000 mile gorgeous Survivor that I have (paper) pics of.....If I ever get around to scanning..I'll display a few....

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Thanks Chuck! . Do you know what 72 Z-28 production is....I seem to recall about 2500 units? . Is this lowest production next to the '67's? ~ Pete

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

[/ QUOTE ] Would you mind explaining the comfort difference? I would think they would be identical in that respect; what is so different to make one more comfortable to drive? Is it the taller seats?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, The seats in the 70 are the same ones used in the 69 Camaro. In 71 they used the
the same type of seat used in the Vega. As we all know the 69 seats have no Lumbar
support and in my opinion are not very comfortable where as the 71 seats are extremely
comfortable and offer support when cornering. A lot of people forget how well these cars
handle. I have a set of fat radials on my Z and that car is a blast to Drive on them long
and winding Bucks County Roads. As far as Value goes I am going on some of the Recent
Public and Private sales that I am aware of. I figure the value is about 10% or less on a
Comparable 71 Z/28. I do not agree on the 25-40%. This is not a Chevelle where we are
talking about where they made a bunch of Cosmetic as well as Performance changes. GM
made very few changes or should I say Improvements to the car. You also have to remember
they also changed the way they rated the HP in 71, Personally I like Apples and Oranges……

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

Camaro WHITE Book says 2,575 for 1972........lowest of the 70-74 era..........

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

It's closer to oranges to oranges for me. I owned a great early 71 Z28RS, Classic Copper/black stripes, auto, full load,low spoiler, even the glove box mounted "Delco Travelite" The car honked real good. Road in some 70's with auto's and did'nt really notice any difference!JMO
Peter

Re: 1970 vs 1971 Z28 (apples to oranges?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know of a good book that deals specifically with second generation Camaros or F-Bodies?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is only one book that I know of. The Illustrated Camaro Recognition Guide Volume 2: 1970-1973 by John Hooper.

Has some good information.

Rick H.