Original motor vs. replacement
 

The "68 Z28 whats it worth" thread raised an interesting question. Namely, does a non-original motor detract from a car's appeal, numbers matching status or value? I'am defining the original motor or block as follows:

1. The one it was born with from the factory.
2. The one installed by Chevy Dealers such as Yenko, Motion, Dana, etc., that went to the first owner.
3. The one installed as a warranty repalcement.

All opinions welcome Gents - feel free to chime in.

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

I think that it would.

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Thanks for your reply Lester. Are you basing your thoughts on a particular car?

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

well,Lets take my car for example.It is a 1968 RS/SS L34 396 vert.it has the original engine.It is pretty much all original and the smog equipment has never been off the car.The serial number on the block matches the POP which proves it's originallty.and being one of the 1015 mr code L34's.It has a certain value as an orig car. someone with a 6 cyl camaro vert can put a 396 in it and increase it's value but I would rather pay more for the original..I think the original's should be preserved for future generations to show what the factory's in the good ol USA were doing.But then look at the prices of the clones.

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

If you're in it strictly for investment purposes then I'd say that the car has to have its numbers-matching original motor (entire original drivetrain, for that matter). Anything less equals less money, in my opinion. If you're in it for fun and for the thrill of driving and enjoying the car, then the importance of the original engine, etc., decreases. A '67 435-hp Stingray with a 454 and mag wheels is still a cool car, it's just not as valuable as a numbers car with its original engine/trans.

(That sounds like the "No $hit, Sherlock" answer, huh.)

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

The value also has to do with whether the car can be documented as "real" without having the original engine. Mopars tend to retain their high value without the original engine block. For example, a Hemicuda convertible is still worth $4,000,000 whether it has its original block or not. The main reason is that Mopars are easy to document as the 5th digit in the VIN says what the engine is. Compare that to a Camaro you think may be a COPO, but isnt on the COPO VIN list- you cant confirm its status as a COPO because there is no corresponding VIN engine code to prove it and the original engine is gone. That is one of the reasons Chevy supercars really need their original drivetran or some heavy documentation to maintain a high $$$ value.

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

I agree. The value of a documented "real" car with original factory installed numbers items such as the motor is more then say the same car documented "real" with a NOM. It is still a "real" car but the value would be somewhat less of an investment vehicle then the complete real numbers car.

Any car that can not be documented as real even though it may have what seems to be the correct motor would have a substantially lower value.

And any vehicle that can not be documented and does not have any correct drivetrain components would be considered the lesser value vehicle.

Rick H.

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Interesting.

I just put a brand new, unopened (other than for pics) 1969 396 (350hp or 325hp) warranty exchange block kit up for sale (Ebay item:4567196870). (Going to look at a Yenko)

What are you guys thoughts on worth with a warranty replacement, at least on a car that say has a (real) X66 trim tag?

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

This is very interesting and I'll provide my "two pennies" worth which has really not changed in the 15 years or so I have been back in the hobby.

I have what most would consider a very rare car. There is no original documentation with it and the block is a "CE" unit. In addition, the transmission and the rear end are not original to the car either. I have been able to trace the history back to the second owner who passed away last year. I also have good confirmation from a reputable individual stating he knew of my car from day one and was able to provide to me the original selling dealer. However, there is no confirmation available as to what "the original drivetrain" might have been as they were probably scrubbed or broken during the early drag days of the car.

Now, would this information I have satisfy a proposed purchaser? I really can't say and don't care to be honest, that would be up to them obviously. I would never attempt to misrepresent the car in any way as my ethics would not allow me to do that. All I could do is provide the history I have, let the quality of the car speak for itself and go from there. Let's face it, there are people out there that want the original numbers in addition to documentation. There are also people out there that want a quality car that just happens to turn their crank. The latter example is why I bought the car five years ago. I don't lose any sleep over things I can't control like numbers and documantation - I just enjoy the car which is what the hobby means to me.

Having said all that, to answer your questions I will provide the following responses:

APPEAL - I don't think the fact my car does not have the numbers and documentation lessens the appeal one bit.

VALUE - Most definitely effected by the circumstances mentioned. However, I care more about "fun factor" than "value" as I am not what would be considered an investor, just a hobbyist.

Guess I rambled on a bit here, sorry about that.

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

here is the ebay ce engine. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MakeTrack=true

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Don, Your car is beautiful... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Here is my .02 as well. My COPO does not have its original motor and I am almost glad that it doesn't. In todays market with all the " SH%#TY" people restamping motors to "make" a numbers matching car, and with the type of use these cars were intened for, flags always wave when a car states it has the "original numbers matching motor" I feel My CE block is acceptable for these cars as they were raced pretty hard. It helps that I have build sheets, POP imprints, the warranty repair order for the motor and other docs to back the car up. Does it hurt the value?? it may but not a substantial amount..the car is what it is and no one can change that.

ALbert

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

I think njsteve and Rick H have summed it up well and the market prices have been reflecting this for quite some time. Kind of a sliding scale down with docs AND matching #'s being the top combination.

Don, did you see Legendary Motor Co. sold their version of your car recently?

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Albert, I'm glad that you brought up the "driver" vs "Show Car" issue. My COPO has a CE motor, replacement M-21, but original BE rear end. I have no history beyond the previous owner, and the NICB that says it was shipped to Berger 6/2/69. Since I tell everybody who looks at the car that it's incorrect and incomplete, I get a lot less static.
If I were to put the car up for sale, IMHO, that would change dramatically. I drive it about once a week to a cruise in, but it's not any more than a #3 car on a good day.
You guys may have seen the pictures of it posted here, where I refered to it as a 20 footer. Point is, if you want a trailer queen, go for it. If you want a driver, go for it. It's not about the money until it goes on sale, or if you're in the market. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif
Andy https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Well said Andy!


[ QUOTE ]
Albert, I'm glad that you brought up the "driver" vs "Show Car" issue. My COPO has a CE motor, replacement M-21, but original BE rear end. I have no history beyond the previous owner, and the NICB that says it was shipped to Berger 6/2/69. Since I tell everybody who looks at the car that it's incorrect and incomplete, I get a lot less static.
If I were to put the car up for sale, IMHO, that would change dramatically. I drive it about once a week to a cruise in, but it's not any more than a #3 car on a good day.
You guys may have seen the pictures of it posted here, where I refered to it as a 20 footer. Point is, if you want a trailer queen, go for it. If you want a driver, go for it. It's not about the money until it goes on sale, or if you're in the market. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif
Andy https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don, did you see Legendary Motor Co. sold their version of your car recently?

[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't know that Dick, they had that car for quite a while. Wonder what it went for?????

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Craig S.,

The answer to your question is very simple.

Imagine TWO IDENTICAL cars.......one with it's original engine, the other with a replacement. It doesn't matter whether they are '68 Baldwin-Motion Phase III Camaros, Hemi Cuda convertibles, or '49 Nashs. One one with it's original engine will always be worth more.

Of course, there will be cases where due to different equipment or documentation between 2 cars, the one with the replacement engine may be worth more.....but to answer your original question, I think we (you) need to consider IDENTICAL cars in every aspect other than the engine....
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

You had me,right until you brought up the 49 Nash. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Good point Verne but that begs the question how much less should a car be worth with the CE block?

I had signed a contract to buy an Orange 70 1/2 Camaro 396/375 from Legendary Motor Cars a few years back. It was represented as numbers matching. (the price was $24,000) I subsequently found out it was a CE block and walked away from the deal. I am still kicking myself buying that car. I was just unsure as to the value with the CE block.

I would think in a more rare and sought after vehicle the numbers matching would matter less. Who here would pass at a Yenko with a CE block and would it really be worth that much less especially in today's market of guys tripping over one another to bid on cars?

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Autoinsane,
How much less? Only the buyer can determine that. An impossible question to answer and apply to all cars.
Certainly, the Yenko with the CE block you mentioned would command a very high price, but again, what if there was an IDENTICAL Yenko next to it but with it's original block? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

What if you had a 69 yenko with a non original motor, and a 69 camaro, all original 6 cyl with paper work.I would pay more for the yenko.I guess it all depends on the car.If you have paper work on an original car,I think a CE replacement engine would be fine but wouldn't be worth as much as an original,and would be worth more then a car with a non matching engine.I am glad I bought my car 20 years ago.It would be hard to know your getting an original car today, with repoduction protecto plates,window stickers,broadcast sheets, heck even repo 69 camaro convertible bodys. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter whether they are '68 Baldwin-Motion Phase III Camaros, ...

[/ QUOTE ]

But since the Motion car by definition didn't have it's original engine, as Joel had to take it out to make it a Phase III, how do we think about that? How do you verify the engine Joel put in it? Does it come down to a correctly dated CE engine vs a non-correctly dated CE engine?

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

My head hurts...

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Don't leave out reproduction POP's also... I've seen at least 2 lately.

(edit: I see you did mention that... only with the longer spelled out Protect-O-Plate...)

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Jeff,
I think I'm feeling the same pain. Craig's original criteria were:
"I'am defining the original motor or block as follows:

1. The one it was born with from the factory.
2. The one installed by Chevy Dealers such as Yenko, Motion, Dana, etc., that went to the first owner.
3. The one installed as a warranty repalcement."

I guess it would be difficult to know if an engine was the ACTUAL one installed in the original conversion.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter whether they are '68 Baldwin-Motion Phase III Camaros, ...

[/ QUOTE ]

But since the Motion car by definition didn't have it's original engine, as Joel had to take it out to make it a Phase III,

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless it was a Phase III 396 car, in which case it would have its original L78. Isn't JoeG's Chevelle a Phase III 396?

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Yes it is.
https://www.yenko.net/features/2004/July2004.htm

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

I don't think that the warranty replacement would be considered an original motor. If you purchased a new 1967 Corvette and the motor exploded within 11 months of ownership, chances are that you would now have either a short or long block warranty replacement motor. It may or may not have CE stamped on it depending on the damage and availability of parts. It would, more than likely, have a block and possibly components that could have part numbers for a 1968 vintage car and the motor may have a casting date up to 11 months later than the assembly date of the car. If someone offered me a 1967 435 Corvette with a replacement 3904351 four bolt block with a casting date 30 days before the assembly date of the car or a CE motor with evidence of factory warranty replacement, I'd choose the correctly dated block. This is just me, I think there is value having a replacement motor of correct part number and casting date vintage. People can always say a replacement motor is a warranty replacement motor and this would be very hard to prove.

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

I'll take a CE block over a re-stamped and re- broached block any day. Get tired of hearing about that magical back of the garage ,original engine find by Joey Bagadonuts cousin thru his sisters aunt's boyfriend and voila...the original engine appears ! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Ah Bob, You are hurting my feelings! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take a CE block over a re-stamped and re- broached block any day. Get tired of hearing about that magical back of the garage ,original engine find by Joey Bagadonuts cousin thru his sisters aunt's boyfriend and voila...the original engine appears ! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

I almost got pulled into one of those stories. I contacted he 2d owner of my Hemi Charger back in 2002 (this was the same guy who assembled the replacement engine while drunk and put the pistons in backwards). He told me he had the original block from my Charger in his dad's garage. When I told him I'd pay him his price for the block he said he'd get back to me. After chasing him for months I finally get a hold of him and he says that his dad got tired of it in the garage and threw it out just the other day. Well, his dad is 85 years old and a hemi block weighs about 500 pounds so I knew he was full of excrement. In addition, I knew the orginal owner literally grenaded the original block at 150 mph (with 4.10 gears, so you can imagine the schrapnel that caused).

Through a bizarre fluke of fate in 1989 I ended up with the engine block from the next hemi car built right after mine. It happened to be in a Hemi Daytona I bought to restore. Both my 70 Charger and the 69 Daytona had the perfect date coded block for the opposite car. I switched them and never looked at the VINs til years later. It turned out the block I now have in the car was from the same assembly line, same day only 21 cars later than my car. According to Galen Govier (the Ed Cuneen of Mopars) there were no hemi cars built between those two serial numbers: I stumbled into the next hemi built after my motor on the same day. Very Scary!

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it would be difficult to know if an engine was the ACTUAL one installed in the original conversion.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

And that statement brings up my next question. How DO owners of dealer converted cars determine if they have "The" motor that was dropped in? Obviously, this doesn't apply to the COPOs

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

You dont! Unless that dealer kept records of it; Consider all the Dana changeovers...All mostly were VN cars. How many Camaros,etc did they change? What Chevrolet dealer in all of the US didnt have part #s or ordering capabilities to any engine available from GM! Why couldnt I have walked in, slapped down a payment on a base X44 car at that time and pay that dealership(dealership willing) the extra money and fees to R&R any motor and install any L88 available at that time? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ah Bob, You are hurting my feelings

[/ QUOTE ] Sorry Sam...I forgot that was your brudderinlaw !!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif And where the hell is my Philly Cheese Steak sangwich ???

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah Bob, You are hurting my feelings

[/ QUOTE ] Sorry Sam...I forgot that was your brudderinlaw !!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif And where the hell is my Philly Cheese Steak sangwich ???

[/ QUOTE ]
Ole Vinny Bagadouhnuts from Joysee, Fuhgetabout it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

[ QUOTE ]
You dont! Unless that dealer kept records of it; https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll buy that, but I'd like to hear from actual owners of 67-8 dealer converted cars. Again, is there a way to determine if "The" motor is in your car.

OK you guys.......fess-up!

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

It seems to me that the value of a dealer conversion car is dependant on its paperwork and/or verifiable history verifying it as such. A dealer conversion with a correct replacement engine (not the engine put in by the dealer/conversion shop), or no engine at all, is still worth a pile of money if it can be verified. A '67 Nickey 427 Camaro with all the right original paperwork but with a '69 427 engine is still extremely valuable because it can be verified as an original Nickey 427 conversion. (Same for Yenko, Motion, Dana, etc.) JMO.

Re: Original motor vs. replacement
 

Did the green Yenko in this auction have "The original motor"?...or was it a "Matching number replacement motor"?
.....taken from a previous post about the Yenko sold at Mecum Auction....
...."A '69 Rally Green Yenko Camaro sold a few weeks ago in a Houston Auction for $247,500 + buyers fee. I think the buyer's fee is around 8% putting the selling price around $267,300 WOW! "
.....I thought someone said it was a "Matching Number Motor"....which is not always the original motor!
.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif