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Milt Schornack tested the prototype GTO Judge at Miami Dragway. This car was painted orange. With half a tank of gas the car weighted 3640 pounds. The 800 CFM Holley was a major improvement on the old quadrajet carb. Though the intake manifold was a poor (tuned for 5000 RPM plus) design as a result of the low hood line requirement. Doug Thorley provided custom headers and the car was equipped with an M-21 and 4.88 gears. An aluminum flywheel did not prove up to the task however. The half dozen passes made started out with a 12.42 @ 113 run. The times continued to improve with a best time of 11.86 @ 116 MPH. A production run of 1500 cars was suggested and these would have the better M-22 transmission and heavy duty rear end parts.
"CARS" magazine wrote about another RA V car, tested in Florida with mfg. plate (GM 0750). This GTO was said to be the prototype for the line. They made excuses about it's poor performance saying the motor was tired but said it had 11 second potential.
There were even more exotic engines that Pontiac was testing and looking at for production. Included were SOHC and DOHC versions of future Pontiac engines. The energy crisis helped to kill those ideas.

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not to mention the 427 hemi charles.

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Was Mac MacKellar responsible for the RAV ? I read where he ran around the streets with an OHC 421 63 Prix...

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--------Ive seen that car at the POCI nationals.Very CQQL! I dont know the status of Mac today.Can anyone help? He was given that OHC car,or maybe the motor alone installed in the car,as a retirement present.I heard it run but never saw it agressively driven. Wish I had! Would it be fair to say Mac was a visionary,possibly a genius? A lot of Pontiac guys think so...........Bill S

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The OHC 421 tri -power in Mac's car was a gift to him from GM after he retired. GM was going to scrap it along with others that Mac had built. There where several peices missing when Mac go the engine. The whole thing had to be rebuilt prior to installatiion. Many leaks. Mike Cimoli worked on it and found that the cams where on the wrong side. Corrected problems and ran ran like a champ. Mac continued to try different exhaust breathers etc. The '63 GP was reasently repainted. 2-3years ago.
I spoke to Mac this past Saturday. Do to his health he is not very comfortable. Pacemaker, lower back problem (failed low back surgery 10 years ago), and now burning feet. He can't function without much pain. He's most upset that he has'nt been able to work on his cars in 10 years.
Did you know Mac took a course in body work about 11 - 12 years ago? He was restoring a 1966 GTO convertible.
He is one of the most modist people you'll ever meet.

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Loved that old 1970 Chevelle SS. Ertl sent me two of those a few years ago.

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Copo.. the main man with all the pics..... have you got any pics of this orange Judge other than the one in the Super Stock? There must be other photos of it, but the editor only used 1 in the article. Or maybe some one else has knowledge of where they may be.

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Copo.. the main man [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] with all the pics..... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] Probably i have many old review [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]
Too many this is the problem [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

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Well it would be REALLY sweet if you can post one of the rear of the car showing the spoiler and tag, plus a straight on front veiw.

I will owe you a favor [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]

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Steved
a Pepsi with this [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

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Man you drive a hard bargain, ok I owe you Pepsi. I'll even make it a free refill.

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I have many but the 10M-226 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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steved

I assume you are talking about the RA-V that was run in FL. I have 4 sets of pics of it but NONE are color. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]Sorry. These are the one with the unique paint scheme. If need be will try to post a couple. Jeffh has them too and he may be quicker. Having trouble reducing size. Trying to attach but still may be too big.

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This is the one I'm talking about.

RAV Testing

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Sorry, Don't have that one.

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[ QUOTE ]
Copo.. the main man with all the pics..... have you got any pics of this orange Judge other than the one in the Super Stock? There must be other photos of it, but the editor only used 1 in the article. Or maybe some one else has knowledge of where they may be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

I have knowledge of where some of them are [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. They are in my husbandís archives. As he stated before, Bill has dozens of actual original photos of that Judge in the article (with and without signs). Since you have ìburned your bridgesî with him, I doubt very much he would ever show them to you.

For the THIRD timeÖThat car in SUPER STOCK was a RAM AIR III, 4 spd car that belonged to Jess Jesen from Colonial Pontiac. It was NOT a ìspecial engineering carî nor was it the Lime GTO that was made into a Judge. Even though you do not appear to believe him, Jim Wangers, along with Milt and Dave (who were all there) have all confirmed this information through the years and their stories all correlate with each otherís on this topic. The magazine article is a modge-podge of data. The photo credit clearly shows ìPhotoís by GM Photographicî, so they were not taken by the magazine photographer. Take a look at that photo again, you will see that the Judge has MAG wheels and STICKERS all over it! Looking at Billís photos I can see this Judge has a Florida Dealer plate and a TRAILER HITCH! Does not sound much like an engineering car [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img], unless they used it to tow their "RAM AIR V SPEEDBOAT" around Florida! LOL!

Over the past couple months (in previous threads on here), it has been proven (beyond a reasonable doubt) that there were no RA V motorís put in GTOís on the assembly line, nor were any installed in GTOís by engineering and sold to retail customers. The article with the JUDGE was mocked up for ìP.R.î purposes and before you askÖthere were NO Ram Air Vís put in Pontiac Astreís either! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

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[quote
Over the past couple months (in previous threads on here), it has been proven (beyond a reasonable doubt) that there were no RA V motors put in GTOs on the assembly line, nor were any installed in GTOs by engineering and sold to retail customers. Rita

[/ QUOTE ]

Rita and all,
There was a question raised about Milt Schornack's website.
miltschornack.com

On the website, (managed by his son Jim), they picture the RA-V GTO that they've finished building. (Note: he never "claims" it's a factory RA-V!) But the car is now being called a Ram Air VI! (six!)
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif
Anyway, in speaking with Mr. Schornack, he informed me that the "next rational step" in expanding on the RA-V WOULD HAVE been to upsize the engine to a 421 and change the cam, intake and exhaust ports. (Milt even had some insight into Pontiac's plans for a Ram Air VII !!!)

So, when Milt calls this car a Ram Air 6, it's because he had a very good idea what it WOULD have been.

Now.... anybody who knows GTOs/Pontiac SHOULD understand that a RA-VI or even a RA-VII are not "officially" a Pontiac set-up, because PMD never released them . So what Milt's doing is simply having some fun with his son.

I have a buddy who painted a '75 LeMans in Carousel Red, blacked-out the grill and tagged it with "The Judge" emblems. As butt-ugly as that car was-- it CERTAINLY was alotta fun to look at! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

In short (ha ha), please don't take Milt's RA-VI claim too seriously -- it's only meant to be fun!
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

~GOAT72 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

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If anyone is interested in seeing this, I could start posting it (about a dozen pages). Got it from a guy named Westley who bought a crate motor, I suspect it came with the motor.

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Page 1

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Belair

George DeLorean is credited with taken a set of Ford heads to Pontiac Engineers for development.

Two of the engineers that I know of at this point, were Jeff Young and Tom Nell.

There is a third that came along late in the program, that is helping research with me. I'll put up what he helps me with and who he is when it's finished.

Tom Nell is retired and the author of the attachments I made earlier today, he does not like to talk about it the past.

Jeff Young's last known where abouts, Colorado Springs in the hotel business.

Steve

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[ QUOTE ]
George DeLorean is credited with taken a set of Ford heads to Pontiac Engineers for development.

Two of the engineers that I know of at this point, were Jeff Young and Tom Nell.

There is a third that came along late in the program, that is helping research with me. I'll put up what he helps me with and who he is when it's finished.



[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,
Thanks for posting those, they are very interesting! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

G72 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

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And the most interesting, no info is given as to what motor, when, cam, or any of this type stuff. Would be really something if it was done by Pontiac Engineering. If anyone recognizes the two names, please speak up.

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I've made some updates to my Ramair V page with the help from people in here and other net resources, might want to check some of it out.

Ramair V Page

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I talked to a Swedish Pontiac guru a week ago about our RAII engine, and he mentioned that a guy with the name of Lawrienco (not sure about the spelling) used to dragrace a RAV engine in Sweden in the seventies. He has been searching for it for years. No one seems to know what happened with it when Lawrienco quit racing.

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Deleted per Goat72

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This proof sheet shows both cars staged and/or running at Miami Dragway in Feb. of 1969.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...chor_miami.jpg

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

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You may want to go here for more information as this was discussed earlier and some of the pics you are showing were either in mag's back in the day and in 1 case they were in a Pontiac book put out by Motion in Baldwin, NY. I think I sent someone (Jeff?) or Steved the pic's I have.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post154491

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I have all those pics and more, but not from anyone in Yenko.

Keith... I also have engine shots. The Judge has what appears to be a 68 RAII motor; also if I'm not mistaken without my material in front of me, it is the one with the prototype Judge spoiler that isn't quite like production.

I have heard several people claim it is a Wangers conversion from a Limelight green regular 69. Does that fall in line with what you have been told?

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I have three or four different sets of pics, different race sessions. The Judge in the set you posted definitely has a pic from the rear showing the prototype spoiler.

From another session; again with the blue car and prototype spoiler, an engine shot clearly shows what would turn out to be a RAII if the codes could be read.

Nothing of significance, just interesting how they swapped engines in and out of those cars like running water.

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Deleted per Goat72

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I take it you haven't seen the engine pic that I have with the RAII and "definite" prototype Ramair system, I'll post it tonight. Very interesting stuff.

They may have had one or more of these proto Judges that ran in the Wangers/Royal circles, that is the only thing I have never figured out from the pictures.

The Firebird being the only car to have the V in it, that is what I have heard too.

You know of course this will bring the fury of the Shultz's down on you?

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I'm new to the site and I just started following this thread...interesting info here.... That car has always interested me... So, are you saying the Schultz car never had a RA-V when it was in Miami and all the data was faked or invented ?

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Keith

I came home at lunch and was about to scan the pics, when upon looking closer I noticed a battery cable going to the right side. This is an article spear headed by Milt; at least that is who is credited, on the blue car and Judge's performance. In the mix of photos, they have one proto Ramair system, and one full engine shot. Then several of the blue car and Judge, the engine is for sure a RAII but now I believe it's a dumped in the article Firebird compartment shot. For what purpose to mock up an engine shot, I have no clue. Looks like the Ramair shot may indeed be the Judge (clone), maybe?

Geez in light of Dave's question, conflicting things I've already heard, and what you said...... one could only imagine if the truth will ever be known.