Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Rob & Pete;
Is there a place to go on the net to find out the various tips and tricks that have been attempted in order to extract the best ET, MPH and traction from a pure stocker? I have a few theories that I'd like to try, but if someone else has already tested them I'd be interested in their results. I know most guys don't readily share this type of info, but a Deuce is much slower than the BB's so I wouldn't be posing a threat [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]
I'm sorry, could you repeat the question???????
Peter

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Ok! I'll be a little more specific [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Does the Pertronix ignition conversion perform better than the points/condenser?

If you put spring clamps on the rear leafs, do you put a clamp at the end of each leaf? Do you put them before the axle, after the axle or both?

Is it better to put strong shocks on the front or worn out ones in order to allow more travel, and therefore more weight transfer? Do worn out shocks on the rear allow for more weight transfer or do they contribute to spring wrap and wheel-hop?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Marlin,

Does the Pertronix ignition conversion perform better than the points/condenser? - Yes, it gives you more reliable spark at high RPM.

If you put spring clamps on the rear leafs, do you put a clamp at the end of each leaf? Do you put them before the axle, after the axle or both? - In front of the axle, it makes the springs act like traction bars. If they are worn, put in some new spring eye bushings while you're at it.

Is it better to put strong shocks on the front or worn out ones in order to allow more travel, and therefore more weight transfer? Do worn out shocks on the rear allow for more weight transfer or do they contribute to spring wrap and wheel-hop? - Soft in the front, stiff in the rear. You want the front to rise up for weight transfer, but you do not want the rear to squat. If the body is squatting down over the rear axle, it is unloading the rear wheels.

Hope that helps!
-Sam

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

M:

The Pertronix is just "ok" in my eyes. Yeah, you don't have to mess with points, but we've had a couple of BOTH versions go out on us. FYI, we ran points up until last year, when I went ahead and went back to Pertronix. I am currently entertaining "other" ignition options, one of which is the new Crane ignition conversion unit, which includes a built in rev limiter (4k-8k).

As for the spring clamps & shocks, Sam hit it right on the head. BUT, I did some testing with a st of 90/10s on the front and couldn't tell a difference than the set of "run of the mill" shocks we had on. Maybe if we were running a decent stall and decent tires, then the 90/10s might be helpful. This might be different on a manual car, but I seriously doubt the little tires will handle much of a shock. Just my thoughts...

Oh, as for your "Pure Stock information exchange", it's slim pickings, except for the Pure Stock board and here. So, how about those "theories"?

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Marlin, Don't even talk to me if your not running the stock over the counter camshaft! My theory is GM spent millions developing these motors and shafts to run with manifolds, and if you put on headers, they would respond well, but they work well with manifolds. I've had so many guys ask me what shaft I'm running and I tell them. Then were at the track and their car is not doing the number, only to find out they put a "little " bigger one in or the 30/30 shaft. Bigger is not always better! Don't dick with the center line and put some over lap in it as you will lose some very important compression. Shift at 6000 rpm, not 5900 and not 6100 rpm.
I've had good luck with Protronix. Get the old style, as new one has some problems still.
My Nova is stock and unrestored. As in original springs front and rear, with UAP NAPA 50/50 shocks on all corners. I do put two clamps on each side ahead of the spring, mostly to help not spit a driveshaft.
Exhaust is very important. 2 1/2 inch mandrel all the way. My Nova currently has kinky 2 1/4, which is costing me close to 2 tenths.
Put in new body mounts, poly urathane is best. I currently have the original cracked ones in it, gotta change it. Brand new rubber is good also and won't flex much.
Run as close to 11:1 as possible, JE pistons are much better than the TRW I have. Likely only about 10:1 if measured.
In your case, save your original M21 and put in a M20 if your gunna bang on it. That's good for 2 tenths.
If I take my own advice here, I'm sure on E70-14's I can get a 12.80 out of it, maybe even a 12.70. Time will tell. Now get to work!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
Peter

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Hmmmm!
Thanks for the tips. I have the Mallory under-cap conversion in my car now, seems ok but I won't know till I run it up in RPM. I have only revved the engine to 5500 so far.

My cam should be ok, I didn't put the exact cam in because I don't like Crane cams so I put an equivelant Comp Cams in. The M20 is a quicker trans, but the COPO Nov's came with the M21 so I really can't be changing that! I have a Gardner system on my car with the krinkle bends, twin resonators etc...

I guess I will just have to tune it the best I can, and run it to get a baseline! I'd be happy if it ran as well as Neal's red deuce, 13.7's in the heat, 13.5's on a cool evening.

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

M:

I hope you have better luck with your cam decision than I did. Against someone's advice, I went with something other than the GM (Crane) cam and it came in way short. I the stood back and watched a GM cam spec right on the money...live an learn!

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Rob;
I know, I have heard both sides of the Crane Cam story. I never built an engine before the deuce's, so I had to weigh all the stories that I had heard. Neal has had good luck with the Comp's so that's what I went with.

I also used the TRW pistons, 11:1's, because I figured they were the stock ones. If I could do it over again, I'd use JE's after hearing your experiences with the TRW's.

Oh well, I'll wait till spring, and see if I can get it to the track. Doing a little drag racing with the Yenko is the last part of my goal with this project. What good is a Yenko car if it looks pretty, but doesn't run the number [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Neils had good luck with his comp cam???????? When he was running his big block, for two years he kept asking me, "what cam?". I'd tell him, "go to GM and order the real deal. Finally after the Ohio race, he was frustrated and asked again. I gave him the same answer. He tried to get me drunk on Canadian beer to see if I would change my answer. First off, never try and get a Canadian drunk on Canadian beer and try and stay with him drink for drink. He would'nt remember if I told a different answer anyway! The following week he finally put in the GM L78 cam from gm. First pass was 2 tenths and 3 mph quicker than the car ever ran!!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] I expect the same difference on his small block!
Peter

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

I was referring to the Comp cam he has in his red Deuce.

The Comp Cam that Neal had in his '68 BB was a little cam he had put in for the street many years ago, he didn't have a local source of higher octane fuel. He knew it was much smaller than stock, but thought it would work better with the iron mani's. He was indeed happier when he put the L78 cam in, so was the BB [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

I wouldn't try matching you guys beer for beer! You must admit, JJ is awfully funny when he gets a few in him though. Quite animated when he shows you how to shift the 4hitter in the middle of the hotel room, then he burned himself with his cig!

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Marlin, I am new to the site, but I met you at the Vargo Dragway Reunion 2 years ago. Your car is great. I love the overspray on the cowl panel. In 1971, we put a 1970 LT1 crated motor in my 1969 SS Nova. I bought the motor from chevy, and we took it apart and went over everything and had it balanced and clearanced. It had a stock LT1 intake, and the stock 1970 LT1 chevy cam, I think we set it at 24 and 26!!?? The car had the original 4:10 ring and pinion, and the original re-jetted 780 holley and went 12.56 at 108 mph. I still have the time cards. The stock single point ignition was also good enough. The 780 was from a 1969 Z/28. I changed the M21 trans and put my spare M20 trans. in and immediatly picked up 2 tenths. 90/10 shocks in the front and 50/50 in the back. The stock cam was a bear. Once it hit 3000rpm it pulled to 6500 instantly. I had 7 inch tires in those days 28 inches tall, and open headers. Everything is about the right combination. I bought the car new from Mullin Chevrolet in Ambler Pa. in April of 69. Cloth bench seat 4 speed, no gauges. Dark Blue, lite blue interior. A good guy to help you out on your tune up is a few miles from you. (Pete Suriano) Pete's Automotive Pottstown. (610)326-8322 Good Luck! Sam

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Now we are getting somewhere! Great info, Sam! What was the Nova's "average" 60 foot time with the 12.56 setup? What exhaust were you running?

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Oh my! Do you have ESP or something??
I was just talking about you to a neighbor, and was trying to remember what shop you told me about in Pottstown. I will be needing some machine work done in the near future, small world.

I totally believe you went the 12.xx numbers with that combination, also the 2 tenths from the M20. My buddy Neal and I have compared the slips from an M20 vs. M21, the M20 60 foots better and the M21 does better at each marker after that I think. But the M20 does such a number on the M21 in the first 60 feet, you run out of track before you can catch him.

Hope to make it back to the Vargo show next year. Stop by the shop sometime in Perkasie, behind the daycare on 5th street. My new project is in there, '69 rallye green, L78, 4sp, 3.55 12 bolt, custom interior w/ buckets. It will be at Vargo in a few years [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Rob, In the old days, I don't remember Maple Grove Dragway with 60 ft. timers back then. I forgot to mention I had Lakewood traction bars. Really the key to everything is the right combination. I had a set of Casler headers, and I made a set of 6 inch collectors and bolted them on. I truly think to this day with a set of 488's I could of put this car in the 11's. The car weighed 3250lbs to run small brute eliminator. Nothing trick, just a real good hone job on the cylinders, and good basic head work.

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Marlin, Pete is a great guy. Has been around for many years. Has done all my work since 1970. I finally did a real good motor for my Nova about 1974. We used stock LT1 pistons and moved the ring land up and put an 1/8in. ring up top. We put an old engle roller cam, with about 500inch lift, put 88's in the rear and took the back seat out and went 11.58 at 122 down Cecil County. That car was unbelievable. The MPH was high, because I should of had 538's in it. Basically stock pistons,the first guy in this area to use the angle plug heads. I think they were the 292's, bought them from Shaws Speed Shop. Pete did the heads and cut them for the big springs. I have some old pictures of the car at Maple Grove, I have to see if my kid can down load them for me. I live in Souderton, so I am not far at all from Perkasie. None of this is rocket science, just basic! Do you know that guy in Greenlane with the orange Yenko, original paint etc. He bought it in about 1970, coming out of Nam. He told me he paid $2700 for it. It is a very, very nice original car. Says it is original motor. I don't know. Sam

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Pete/Rob;
What type of driveshaft safety loop do you guys use, did you have to drill holes in the floor pans?

Also, how did you attach a radiator overflow container?

PXTX;
I'm still mulling over your email, good explanation, thanks for the info.

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Sam;
Been to Dave's house several times, once with BKH, his orange Yenko camaro is a very nice car. He has several large pic's of him racing it at the grove. Nice car, even has a few options, guages, v/t, and p/s.

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

I'm running an Indian Performance(?) unit, that bolts to the trans mount, but will make the other ones from here on out. I'll try and dig out a picture, as it's a pretty nice setup. If Casey sees this, he improved his, and I know HE has pics. Casey? As for overflow, I just ran a hose to the washer bottle. Pete?

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Marlin, I talked to him a couple of times at the Wal Mart show. He is a nice guy. Nice car pretty much unrestored. Let me know when you are going to be in Perkasie, I'll stop around. If you are planning on running your car, you may need a blow proof bellhousing at Maple Grove. You have a solid lifter motor. Sam

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Sam;
Explain that a little more? Are you saying that a solid lifter engine requires a blowproof? If that's the case, I'm SOL - I don't want to change the bell just for a few joy runs!

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

Anytime that I ran my car with solid lifters, I needed a Lakewood bellhousing. Maybe on there Friday nite grudge runs, or if their rules at the Grove changed, you will not need it. I think they are worried about your legs at high revs. Maybe it is time to make this a day 2 car!!!??? Remember NONE of these cars stayed really stock for more than a few weeks. It was almost impossible to keep these cars with the small tires, no traction bars, and no headers for any lenght of time. There was just way to much potential left in them. You could call Maple Grove and ask. A bellhousing is not really hard to do. Sam

Re: Pure Stock Drag Racing tips & tricks
 

I don't think a steel bellhousing is required until you get pretty quick. Here's the biggies you need to be concerned with:

- driveshaft loop = 13.99 (NHRA)
- helmet = 13.99 (NHRA)
- roll bar = 11.99 (NHRA) 11.50 (IHRA)
- 16 oz. catch can (NHRA)

I think you're supposed to wear long pants, and there may be some other little stuff I'm missing. Some of you other racers jump in here...

Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

......but I DO believe that a Gobi Beige Deuce is LEGAL at the Pure Stock races ???? No ?????


I may have to with-hold my driveshaft loop retro knowledge until Marlin says he's bringin' the Deuce to the Pure Stocks .................. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

What's the problem ??? A PURE STOCK DEUCE is afraid of a lil 'ole W-31 Oldsmobile ?? We all know Olds' are sissy cars ............ [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

And there you are..
Welcome aboard Casey! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Pure stock Deuce might be afraid, but not no Canadian COPO [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Casey....never kick a sleeping dog!
Peter

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Peter - HUSH !!!!

I'm trying to get Marlin to bring out some of his iron. < Even tho it is Gobi Beige ...... > [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Hey now! I would never pick on the sissy cars!

I will call the Grove to see what their rules are, still planning on making a spring time run - regardless of Casey's thoughts [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Somebody explain the mechanics of wheel-hop, primarilary the pinion gear riding up on the ring gear. pxtx explained it to me in an email, seems logical, but how do spring clamps prevent wheel-hop and thereby increase traction. Will the spring clamps make the car rise rather than squat?

Sam,
Can't be making my car into a day 2 car! I would like to make it to the pure stock events in OH or MI one of these years.
Still learning,
Thx

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Marlin, this is a quote off another BB site and is a general description of wheel hop. Hopefully this gives you a little better understanding.
Rick

"Pinion angle is possibilty. I would shoot for a couple degrees down because once you get on the power, axle wind-up will bring it back to zero. That will be a trial and error process. As far as taking leafs out, I think that will hurt more than help. What's happening is the axle "wraps up" and pulls the spring to the shape of an "S" until it can't twist anymore then violently unwraps. This loading and unloading bounces the tire off the ground. Sofening the spring will make this worse. The Super Stock drag racers in the 60's used things called "spring clamps" which were basically just two pieces of flat stock drilled and tapped and bolted together around the spring leaves to keep them from separating under load effectively stiffening the spring. You might get away with just doing the right rear kind of like preloading a car with an airbag. If you REALLY want to get over your head get a book called "Circle Track Suspension" by Forbes Aird from Motorbooks International. There's more there than you want to know."

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Spring clamps work! Period. Two per side.... on the front only..... and it is allowed! Make your own out of 1/4 bar stock.
Peter

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Can you install a larger or better pinion snubber to help stop the rotation of the housing? I guess I better start making some spring clamps.

Pete;
I got the photocopy yesterday, thank a major bunch!! Looks like a an el-strippo car, burnished brown to boot! Very cool, thanks.

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Now dangit .......

Marlin needs to learn this stuff on his own. He NEEDS to bring his b e i g e Nova out and start from scratch like the rest of us ........

OK - maybe not scratch.........he can run re-pop bias-plys. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Casey;
The SuperCar guys are a friendly bunch, always willing to help a beige brother in need of speed [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

To adjust the pinion angle on a leaf spring car 4 deg wedge plates are used between the axle spring pad and the spring. Not sure if it is legal under pure stock rules.
Spring clamps are good for racing but not for driving on the street.
The early traction bars used a spring clamp on the forward end of the bar. I have a set of 1967 ET bars on my Camaro with the clamps. With these clamps bolted on it rode like a cement mixer. I removed the clamps and bolted rubber blocks in their place. Now they work more like modern traction bars.

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Marlin, Spring clamps do help. In one of the old magazines I have it shows Dick Harrell using spring clamps on a ZL1 road test. They do work a little better on an automatic car though. You can keep your car pure stock and run it in that capacity. When you are happy with those times, you can bolt on some performance options and see the difference. Bolt on things are easy things to do. Doesn't take away from originality, because you can change it back. Just my opinion. Give me a hollar when you will be up at your garage. Sam

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

I hear you Sam! I have a set of brand new Doug Thorley headers in the basement, just waiting for their day on the Deuce - and trip to the grove. I also have an old school pair of traction bars on my '69 Nova that might find their way onto the Deuce for the header days at the track. But first, I want to see what the car can do in pure stock form, and traction is the biggest hurdle that I've seen so far on other Deuces.

I'll be at the shop later this month, depending on the temp's. Anything above zero degrees F, and I'm in there!

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Ok Marlin, Anything I can do just hollar! Maybe we should take a ride up to Petes. We can pick his brain a little. Have fun!!! Sam

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

Here is a spring clamp on the Dick Harrell Camaro owned by Bill Ogle.....I made a set for my Camaro after talking to Joe at the reunion,they work great.I mounted mine upside down,the traction bar on my car hits the flat bar not the spring.I had some severe "S" bends in my springs.After installing these clamps my springs are now straight,no more windup,and I now launch straighter.I have used the set-up before without the connecting flat bar,but the difference between the two is noticable esp with traction bars.Good luck.

Steve

Re: Correct me if I'm wrong ............
 

I had never ran spring clamps on our Camaro (don't ask me why!) until this past fall, when I was at a bracket race. I had the clamps and thought I would try them...they dropped an easy tenth off my 60 foot times, and made the car VERY consistent. You want the front leafs as still as possible, and many people even clamp an extra "leaf" or piece of steel to the top of the leaf to stiffen it. It is legal to adjust the pinion angle, but I have yet to do it. Maybe Pete can shed some light on how much it helps.

That spring clamp pictured looks EXACTLY like the clamps I picked up this summer at the local parts store...Mr. Gasket, I think?

Marlin, I won't except "no" for an answer, so I will see you in Martin, Norwalk, and/or Stanton with your Deuce!