Full Nut and Bolt Restoration
 

Can Members please post some dollar figures on what a full nut and bolt restoration would cost on a 1969 Camaro. The car needed just a shoe box full of sheet metal to be replaced. The shop rate is $75 per hour. The restoration figure includes parts, materials, and labor. Thank you.

Whatever figure you get, triple it.

Thank you, but I am looking to get some dollar amounts. I would like to know if I am getting taken advantage of.

Are they doing just the body? Maybe around $50K...or the entire drivetrain and interior? Maybe $100k? Does it involve dated-coded correct original parts? $150,000. Does the car have it's born-with drivetrain still in it If not, add in another high 5 figure amount.

Unless you've endured the experience of restoring a 1000-point car and had it judged at a national level, you won't have a true concept of the amount of cubic dollars it takes to get to that level of service. It is well into the 6-figure ballpark. And the vast majority of the cars that go through this never even come close to recovering the restoration costs for their owners when they go to sell them.

For example, any time someone says I want a "BaRrEt JaCkSoN" level restoration, that usually means a slapped-together paint job, full of body filler and aftermarket reproduction parts that look shiny under the lights at an auction but when you wake up the next morning and see it in the light of day, you are really made aware of the term "buyer's remorse."

You also need to get the entire estimate IN WRITING before you hand over the car. You do not pay them for the job beforehand. You pay maybe a 20% deposit so they can purchase materials but then you pay as the work is done and they show you proof and invoice you for the exact labor and materials costs. Otherwise you'll get taken advantage of when they say you'll be paying a set amount each few weeks. That's called Body Shop Prison and they hold your car hostage and keep billing you for ransom $$$$ until you have to repossess your own car from their (probably now out-of-business vacant) shop.

Look around the shop. Are there several dozen cars covered in dust sitting around not being worked on? Or only a couple cars and each one is progressing rapidly with actual people working on them.

Use a shop near enough to you that you can check on progress frequently. I prefer to agree on price & then establish progress payments at milestones. Hours are kinda irrelevant to me because some restorers work more efficiently than others.

Unless the restoration shop does the same type of car over and over,let’s say a 69 Camaro, an estimate or quote cannot be given. Too many variables car to car,even if identical models.
Has it got Ohio rust or Arizona Rust, if it comes in boxes, is everything there. How much will the resto shop have to farm out?.
I just visited a Mercedes Resto Shop, probably the best in the World, work runs from $150,000 for a paint refresh and chrome to $1,000,000.

I purchased this car because it had the original drivetrain and all the original components. I did all the rebuilding on the drivetrain and restoration on all the components. The shop got the body, suspension, and all the glass. They disassembled the car did all the body and paint work. I have been restoring Corvettes for over 40 years and I got to a stage in my life where I didn't want to do another restoration. The car has been at his shop for almost four years and most of the work is completed except for the front and rear glass, interior, wire harnesses, radiator and shroud. It just seems like the amount of money I paid this shop the car should have been finished long ago.

[QUOTE=Canuck;1681397]Unless the restoration shop does the same type of car over and over,let’s say a 69 Camaro

That’s the restoration shop that you want - the one with a lot of experience restoring your model car. Otherwise, in the absence of an up front estimate, you risk paying extra for someone else’s learning curve. As the disassembly progresses there will be unforeseen issues that surface & extra charges will be discussed.

I’ve certainly been on the receiving end of “body shop jail”. My 69 Pace Car was a prime example that was discussed on this forum. In that case - the community agreed that it was time to cut my losses. I retrieved my car - licked my wounds - and had a local shop make repairs & finish the restoration (which I’m now very happy with).

I had roughly $50K in body/paint in my 69 Camaro. I dropped the car off as a roller with interior stripped out. They disassembled, stripped, very minimal sheetmetal work with all GM panels, primer/paint, re-assembled and set gaps on body. I did the rear end, subframe, interior, wiring, trim......really everything but the body and delivered them restored components when needed. They were local to me so I could keep an eye on their progress. They had the car roughly 18 months.

If it's that close to done and they are dragging their feet, it's time to either strap on a safety harness and start riding their ass to finish it or take it out. 4 years is 1-2 years too long already for a "qualified" shop to have completed the work.
Too many stories the same as yours about this situation. I got caught in one several years ago too, but after 9 months of him screwing up all the metal work I did to get it ready for him, I showed up one Saturday morning with my trailer and loaded it all up and left.
Give them a timeline of when you expect it done and be there ready to take it out in whatever condition it's in.

Figure around $100,000 plus.

I am of the opinion paint starts at 30k and goes up from there (assuming the body does not have any major needs). That does not include chrome, stainless, bright work, etc.

There are a ton a variables that are unanswered. As you may already know, the choices in parts, the missing parts, and choices made all along the path affect the outcome as well as the final number. Fitment of so many reproduction parts just suck, to say nothing for their operation. That drives expense.

I will agree with Paul (Canuck), unless the shop is marque specific, I don't know how they can quote a price. I'll also add you may be fighting significant inflation in the last 5 years. Does the shop have help problems? While that should not be your concern, it definitely will affect the outcome.

Was there a set price and that number has been exceeded? That is a great reason to be sentenced to paint jail. Is the shop a production collision shop or restoration shop?

I feel so many times that last 5-10% of a restoration is the most challenging and expensive.

Very difficult to answer this question. Too many variables.

What do I know...............................

The big question is how much can you do & how much will you have to farm out? How much do you need to buy? Of the pieces you have to buy, how many will be aftermarket & how many do you want to bite the bullet for to get NOS or refurbish assembly line original pieces. Since I own 2 1st gen Camaros & I bought them between 1976 & 1981, I put away whatever I could with my paycheck early in life when all the hard parts were going obsolete, so I had most everything to do the 69 ss396. I did all the disassembly. All the reassemblies. Did all the suspension at home. The engine had about 20k on it. Sent the trans out & the seats. Had somebody else do the vinyl top. Paint work was 18 months & 26k, single stage urethane. With everything I mention, it still cost 50k, but my labor is cheap on my own stuff. I would probably say 100k plus (cheap) depending on what you want & what you can do yourself....Joe

I have used the same restoration guy for 30 + years and he has done 12 cars for me. The only estimate He ever gave me was when doing my 68 Charger in 2005 he realized getting the quarter panels right for black paint was going to ad about $1000.00 per panel (blocking,sanding,repeat,repeat) about 8 hours each plus materials. Car turned out beautiful..
Mark did a 71 442 convert for me in 2005 and my latest one finished this year. I called the cars BC1 and BC2 , BC stood for basket case not British Columbia. The cost difference over 20 years was 2.5 X. Paint alone had quadrupled, wait times for parts had expanded from 10-12 weeks to 10-12 months ( interior). Chrome,let’s not go there. I had another car done about 2 years ago, decided to use a local shop, knew the place well. The car was a no rust eastern Washington State car, body work was mostly fixing small dents. I was planning to spend $15,000 to $18,000 (not looking for show quality). Final bill was $42,000. Job was done in 60 days.
Not to discourage anybody from doing a restoration,you just have to be open minded and realistic.

I am way North of $150,000. My next payment to the shop is going to be closer to $200,000. I wasn't too long ago when I restored my last car a 1967 Corvette Coupe. It was a full nut and bolt restoration and everything came in around $100,000. Could prices have doubled in five years? I can answer any variables since I am very involved in the restoration of my 1969 Z/28.

It is a lot cheaper to buy the car of your dreams already done but a lot of us like the chase and don’t have the whole nut at once to pay for the 75,000-100,000 car. It’s probably cheaper to put some money down and finance the rest instead of paying for the extreme high prices of restoration. I’m gonna make a 70 Monte into a convertible. I have the donor convertible but I’m looking for an original big block 70. Probably cheaper to buy a 67 impala ss convertible and be done with it. Love convertibles!

From a strictly financial point of view, it never pays to pay for a nut and bolt restoration on a muscle car short of it being a ZL-1, Yenko, etc and even then only if originally purchased at a very reasonable price.

If starting today and using a professional shop for the work, it's easily $100K on low side and about $200K or more on the high side.

Concourse or close to concourse level car restoration is only for emotional reasons / love of the hobby such as restoring your first car, or your fathers or grandfathers car. It virtually never makes financial sense and probably has been that way for past 10-15 years at least.

Are there detailed / itemized billings to back up the numbers?

The first question I always ask people is, define concourse restoration (nut and bolt). In many peoples mind a full restoration is complete bodywork and paint, frame cleaned and painted, interior cleaned and needed items replaced and then the driveline cleaned up and restored. I define it as what you get back is a brand new car. Every single component on that car from the engine to the brake switch is torn down, cleaned and rebuilt. Distibutors, carburetor, alternator, fuel pump, water pump, AIR pump, starter, ALL rebuilt and restored. New bushings, seals and bearings in every component on the car. Absolutely NOTHING is left untouched. This in my mind is a concours restoration but this also takes a lot of time and money. Our 69 Yenko Chevelle took just shy of 3000 hours between the bodywork and paint, interior, driveline, chassis restoration, sublet work and then restoring and rebuilding every single component on the car. We had a tad over $50,000 in parts so do the math. Obviously this is not the norm but I will say that most of our LS6 restorations started at $125,000 for a concourse restoration and that was almost 3 years ago since I retired so it would be a lot higher today.

The short answer to that is YES, covid changed everything. Availability of goods and employees caused prices to skyrocket quickly. In the building industry, with the unforeseen/unexpected increase in sales, some prices quadrupled. And not much has come back down in cost from that time.
I suspect your car got caught in an employee shortage or the shop was overwhelmed with increased business from people with time and money on their hands to start long dormant projects/dreams.
Still doesn't justify the length of time, if your car was there first and has been bypassed for others.
If you have a reputable establishment that will take the car in and get it done in a timely period, you may be better off doing as Bergy did, get it and ALL your parts out and cut the lose.
NAPA-TIM did pose a very relevant question on paperwork to justify the time and cost.

I have had 17 cars over the years that have undergone complete frame off restorations. My advice would be to find someone you trust and like and even then have them put it in writing for the number of hours not to exceed. There also has to be an agreement that if there is major surprises found both parties must agree on any changes. My general budgeting rule is 1000 hours for complete restoration. I have had one that went 2.5 times that but 1000 hours in a good shop should suffice. Parts on the other hand is a different question, my budget if a lot is missing is usually $40,000. To echo others here don't expect to recoup the cost of the restoration when you sell the car. It is sad because there is so many great cars that needs to be saved but todays economics it just isn't feasible to expect to come out on the other end.

To answer Rick's question yes, every single component was taken apart, cleaned, and restored which was done by me. Yes, it is a concours restoration and to answer another question yes, I have invoices that document the work completed although I am not sure about the hours on the invoice to complete each phase of the restoration. Yes, this was when shop had a shortage of employees during COVID. So, it seems like the $200,00 that I paid is getting closer to reality.

With regards to me question about defining the word restoration, I was stating that more from a standpoint of what quality of restoration that the restoration shop was performing, dollar wise. That greatly effects the overall price of the restoration and the fact that you restored all those items, this should have kept the overall restoration shop price down as these items are very tedious and labor intensive as you well know. I cannot speak for other shops but on my receipts I listed the total labor for that billing period and an overall itemized list of jobs performed. I did not break each job down by hours on the invoice. However, my specific hourly time sheets (by employee) were readily available to anyone who had a question about the billed hours.

Upside down on a nut & bolt restoration? I spoke to a fella a month or so ago at a car show who owns a beautiful 1968 Super Bee. It was a 383 car with absolutely no special options. Paint and body was exquisite (done by a farmer local to me…and honestly he’s really, Really good). But the owner started with a junk car. He tells me there was 1,200 billable hours in paint and body labour. Oops… factor in materials plus parts and even though I’m not exactly sure what the hourly $$$ rate is, I’m pretty sure he now owns the most expensive 383 Super Bee on the planet.

I want to see the car!