Originally Posted by JMB (Post 1606161)

I wonder if this is how there were a couple of "Developmental" 1971 LS-6 Chevelle SS's....

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore (Post 3327906)

The "Little White Race Truck"

I was exchanging PM's with another member here and it made me think of a story you all might appreciate:

As I mentioned earlier, I was reassigned to the GM Proving Ground in Milford, Michigan in 1986. I was delighted to find my new office mate John was, although a bit older than me, a former drag racer that still had the bug. He was/is quite a charismatic man and drew the other racers and motorheads to himself like flies to honey.

He also was the Engineering Vehicle Fleet Coordinator. That meant that if you needed a certain type of truck for a particular test you went to see John. That also meant that if you needed a Suburban for vacation over the weekend, you also went to see John. He was a popular guy.

Well, just before I got there, he and his racing cronies had found a nondescript little white GMC short box stepside pickup in the fleet, vehicle number CP5085. It started life as your typical 1985 small block pickup truck, but the guys had been playing around a bit with it and decided it could use a little more "punch". So - they found a garden variety 454 big block, plus all of the 1973 vintage parts (ie, crossmembers, two piece drive shaft, etc) to convert the driveline, and made themselves a little 454/TH400 powered street truck.

Naturally, after a little bit of that they decided they wanted more. They were able to locate a real LS6 454 motor and dropped that in. About that time they started taking short jaunts off property, including "test sessions" to Milan dragway. Those who had been working on the truck (on second shift, mostly) were given an opportunity to make a pass in it. I think by this time the truck was running high 12s/maybe low 13's, and also starting breaking things. A 9.5" ring gear axle from a 3/4 ton truck, with the axle shafts redrilled for a "5 on 5" bolt circle, was installed about this time, as well as a rear mounted fuel tank (from a Blazer/Suburban) and bed mounted battery.

Well, as you might guess, soon that wasn't enough. A trip to the parts counter netted an original LS7 454 motor and within a day or so that was installed. Times dropped to the low 12s and, with some tuning/cold air, etc, dropped into the high 11's. By now a roll cage was necessary and installed, as were some traction aids.

Unbeknownst to the rest of us John was taking us to the next level. He had noticed something over in the parts warehouse: something not only interesting for the present but with some historical value...

Back in late 1968 (calendar year), when the 1969 models were introduced, there was a big event out on "Black Lake" (the Vehicle Dynamics pad). The motoring press was invited in for this auspicious event and, on the pad, were some special vehicles. Namely - one ZL1 all aluminum 427 powered Corvette development mule, plus a smattering of ZL1 powered Camaros. In addition, there was one engine placed on a stand, both for display purposes and as a backup motor in case something happened to one of the engines in the car. John had found this exact engine over in the warehouse.*

John approached the "owner" of the engine (ie, the guy that had the warehouse "property tag") and attempted to make a deal. He was unsuccessful. He tried a couple times more later on and, even after using all his charms, was still unsuccessful.

He was about to despair when suddenly the breakthrough came: this guy was pulling his snowmobiles "up north" and needed a Suburban. With a gleam in his eye John made the pitch and a deal was struck: just like Esau, who sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of soup, this guy could have a Suburban for the weekend in exchange for this original ZL1 454 engine.



* This backup engine was not a 427 like the others, but was a 454. It also appeared on magazine covers and in articles back in the day.

Here is a picture of that specific engine (ie, not "one like it", or "of this type", but THIS EXACT ENGINE):

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...7&d=1517614316

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore (Post 3327908)

It didn't take long for that engine to be installed, running and tuned up (again, mostly on second shift). Elapsed times dropped again, first to low elevens and eventually to high 10's (best ET on the truck was a 10.71). Things were going great; we were terrorizing the Proving Ground and we were having a blast.

Then, things started to change. I came in to work one day and, laying on my desk, was a clipping from an enthusiast magazine. The title was "Is it True?" and the article said something about these engineers at the Milford Proving Ground, and that they had put a 454 in a pickup and were "...laying waste to unsuspecting Corvettes and Trans Ams..." or some such thing. I thought it was pretty cool and mentioned it to John. He didn't seem to think it was so cool for some reason.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...3.jpg~original

Some time after that I came in and found another piece of paper on my desk (this was back when we still had hardcopy mail - ie, not email). We had a standard form letter, called a "Vehicle Disposition Worksheet", that we got about once per week. It told where vehicles were going, where they were shipped to, or what they were doing. I scanned this particular letter until my finger stopped cold on one line: "Vehicle CP5085 - Final Disposition - Scrap". All the blood ran from my face; John was sitting there and with a parched mouth I asked "...John, why does this vehicle number look familiar?".

He looked around and said "...step into my 'office'". (Naturally, we were already "in his office" - which was MY office, too. What he meant was "come with me to my truck". As fleet coordinator, he could order whatever vehicles he felt were necessary. One vehicle that was ALWAYS necessary was a white/red Crew Cab dually, diesel, with Alcoa aluminum wheels. He always had at least one of these vehicles in the fleet, and since it was the "Queen of the Fleet", we always called it "the Queen". A secondary meaning was that it was as large as the Queen Mary. At any rate, "step into my office" = "come with me to the Queen so that we can discuss this privately").

We sat in the truck in the parking lot and the story began to unfold: Our boss, Jim, was a pretty easy going guy. He had kept a blind eye to all this fun and frivolity, but every man has his breaking point. When the little blurb in the magazine came out, well, that was the last straw. He had called John into his office a couple Fridays before and said (...and I quote...): "John, that truck has notoriety far beyond what you think or imagine. I want it gone and I want it gone NOW!".

John could see that Jim was in no mood for negotiation. However, by the next Monday (after this meeting), when things had cooled down a bit, he had a proposal. The truck was currently broken (broke a rocker arm stud) and not running. Could he repair the engine, so that the motor could be stored as an intact, functioning unit, and THEN scrap the truck? Jim thought that would be ok, so the plan was carried out. The truck was repaired, stripped of all the goodies, and the remaining hulk (ie, cab, box and frame) scrapped.

CP5085 was no more...

...Or was it?........

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore (Post 3327911)

Some of you may already be familiar with the GM "PEP" program (ie, "Product Evaluation Program"), whereby vehicles can be ordered and driven as a company vehicle and then purchased at a discount. John was also a PEP driver and when it came time for his next vehicle we were all amused to see the cutest little red 1987 GMC V6 shortbox stepside pickup arrive with his name on it.

John drove the truck for the required 3000 miles and purchased it. Almost immediately after it got home the V6 was removed (and sold), a 454/TH400 driveline installed and much of the technology from CP5085 added. Out of the box John's little red truck was running low 11's and shortly thereafter dipped into the high 10's. Many observers at the track thought it was simply the original white truck with a new red paint job.

You might be wondering if the engine in this new truck was aluminum or cast iron. It's cast iron (...we checked.... with a magnet). I've asked John where the aluminum engine is, my interest being in preserving a piece of history, and he will only tell me "it's safe". To this day I do not know where it is but only that "it is safe".

I really have to stop and comment for a minute on how much I learned during this time, even though by then I had been racing almost 10 years. John really helped me learn the value of collecting data and analysis, tricks and tuning of a big Chevy and if it weren't for him and the guys my race program would not be where it is today.

CP5085 lives on, not only in my memory but in the abilities of those who were involved with it and are continuing to take what we learned and apply it to our own race programs.

Originally Posted by Crush (Post 1606236)

Great story!

Originally Posted by SPEEDYB (Post 1605899)

Thank you, very interesting read,
always saddens me that while pontiac folks have access to
so much great info, the same corporation has made info for other makes
unoptainable.

Originally Posted by muscle_collector (Post 1606314)

keith how hard was it to get the job of testing vehicles there? i would only imagine you would have to be an engineer, several years of service and ??? did you ever get to do that job?

Originally Posted by 442w30 (Post 1606582)

Unsolicited opinion:

-- Just like the US government, GM was a decentralized corporation. Each company within dealt with its operations. If something is no longer existing pertaining to a particular marque, chalk it up to operations not needing old paperwork to languish.

-- People also have stolen paperwork from said marques.

-- Today, there are people who have paperwork but won't share. That's a big reason why you may not have access to something.

Nonetheless, if you have needs, check with the GM Heritage Center. You may be surprise what they find.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric -

Have you or anyone ever written an article about the "pre-history" of PHS?

During our trip I asked Fred about the technique he used to find the '62 and '63 Super Duty cars; before answering my question he framed the discussion by giving me the background of how he came to find the records and learn to use them, and how Mattison came to found Pontiac Historic Services.

I was driving and couldn't write anything down but this is how I remember what he said:

Back in the middle 1980's he was "into" HO model trains but as he got older he was frustrated because he couldn't see what he was doing (apparently he has always had poor eyesight). He ended up selling all of his train stuff but found himself without a hobby. His wife suggested that he should get a car so after a brief search he found the '67 Lemans that he still has.

His initial introduction to the Pontiac records was through trying to find out information about his own car. He mentioned to one of the secretaries that he would like to know how his car was built and she said "oh, I can find that out". Sure enough, within a couple days she produced the invoice and option content (sort of a prehistoric "PHS" packet!). He asked her how she did that and she replied that the information still existed on property and that it was guarded by a financial person.

Fred later found out this financial guy was going to retire, so he began to visit with him and learn where the information was located and how it was stored. During this time (still mid 80's?) there was a lot of employee turmoil in the form of retirements and outright separations so there was a lot of stuff getting thrown out. Fred told all his friends he was interested in "right of first refusal" so anything they had that might be interesting was passed by him before being pitched. He said he would literally make a trip home every night with all kinds of photos, literature, memorabilia, hardware, trophies, paint samples, etc.

By this time they were receiving maybe a request or two a day from Pontiac enthusiasts (usually fellow employees) that had heard about this service. Between Fred or his friend they were able to fulfill these requests. Additionally, Fred would come in early and poke around, then maybe return at lunch time and finally spend some time in the records before heading home for the evening, just nosing around.

Eventually the requests got to be too much for one person to handle on a part time basis, maybe 20 or so a day. He and Jim Mattison had been friends before that and Jim had become quite familiar with the records and how they were organized (more on that in a minute). It was at that point that Jim approached Pontiac Motor Division and suggested that he could form a company (Automotive Services) and maintain the records and fulfill these requests for information. At that point the information would still belong to Pontiac (I'm guessing) but he would provide the service as a contractor (I'm sure). All of this was taking place while the records were down in the vault, in the basement of the Administration building.

When the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which formed the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

So - about the Super Dutys: The very first request had to do with one of the '62 Super Duty Grand Prix (Allan Gartzman's '62 Grand Prix; one of 16). Fred got a request to check into that car and, having been provided the VIN, he was able to confirm that it was in fact a Super Duty car. There was some variation in how the records were stored based on model year; the '62s were one way (maybe by VIN by Plant) and the '63s were different (like in VIN order by plant but grouped by body style). At any rate what he did was search for that car and then extend his search a little bit in both directions, looking for the engine option code. Eventually, he had a list of VINs going and so he expanded his search to include Catalinas and Bonnevilles (ie, non Grand Prix models) until he had a comprehensive list of 1962 cars. He looked through every 1962 invoice record; He said he continued on into '63 but did not actually look at them all - he went through 160,000 or so invoices but when he got out into the May or June timeframe it had been so long since he had seen any car that even remotely resembled a performance car that he gave up. Bottom line is that Fred literally went through hundreds of thousands of invoices, one by one (on the microfiche) in order to find those cars.

I thought it was fascinating and that others might also be interested. It might be a good idea to get this down on paper (accurately) before it's too late.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore (Post 1606763)

Development is where you play around all day. These assignments are usually project based, either improving on an initial/existing design or addressing a specific customer complaint. Often there is no test procedure and the engineer has to create the process of how to evaluate the changes and what the pass/fail criteria should be. Normally this is where the old timers reside.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore (Post 1606764)

I think it was much less intentional than what this would imply.

The discovery of the Pontiac information was a "happy accident" that we can attribute purely to Fred Simmonds.

Chevrolet was just too big and too spread out to have such a convenient, centralized location for all the information to reside (and subsequently be discovered).

K

Originally Posted by muscle_collector (Post 1606818)

im not sure how far back fred simmons was messing with the sheets (i didnt meet fred until after jim took it over), but back in the late 70's i just randomly called pontiac headquarters and asked about any info i might be able to get on my 70 trans am and they transferred me to a guy named carl klessic (cant remember now on the spelling). he was super nice and said he really didnt know but would see what he could find out. he called me back and said he found paperwork on my car and he and i became very friendly to the point thru the 80's i would call his office and his home phone with a vin and he would call me back and tell me if a car was a real one. he also introduced me to john sawruck. in the mid/late 80's i let tim dye know about this service and he posted it in the poci (if i remember correctly) magazine which then overwhelmed them and they shut it down. then came jim mattison who managed to work out a deal with them and it became PHS services. the rest is history.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore (Post 3280654)

How we got our First GTO

Ok, so its the fall of 1963 and Dad is now the proud owner of a brand new 1964 GTO.

Well....I use the term "proud" loosely. This car had the worst paint job of any production vehicle that he had ever seen in his life. It had little flecks of dirt in it and globs of some kind of black stuff that wouldn't wash off. It also had poor adhesion, and if tape was applied the paint would come right off when you attempted to remove the tape.

Although grateful to not be stuck with a total loss, Dad went back to see Dick Jesse to complain. "Dick" he said "I'd be embarrased to drive this car; it needs a total repaint".

Dick wasn't sure the factory would cover a totally new paint job but said he would make some calls. He contacted the factory rep, Carl Klessick*, and Carl agreed to paint only the problem areas. Dad was to take a small piece of masking tape and stick it over any spots needing repair.

Dad did as he was told and drove the car over to Carl's office. Carl came down to the street, only to find this '64 GTO COMPLETELY (!) covered with masking tape. I think Dad said he used a whole roll to cover the car. Carl approved a total repaint - at the factory and at their expense - right then and there.

After the car was painted it was taken back to Royal and one of the new car prep guys put a real nice "Blue Coral" wax job on it. When all was said and done it was a very respectible looking automobile.

After doing his own "Royal Bobcat supertune" job on the car (similar to post #61 of this thread: "The Gasket Story") Dad was having good success with this car as well. It was also never defeated in B/S class competition and, legend has it, the first GTO here locally to run in the twelves.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1546448623


*I'm sorry, I can't remember the last name for sure and couldn't find it in my notes.