Zl1 #4 $380,000
 

Did anyone see this go down the block today ? Any reason it only bid 380K ????

My guess is column shift auto. Good car otherwise.

Even still seems way too cheap

WHY? isn't that what the market set for that car? Seeing that's what it sold for. Charlie saying it was a "good car' other then the column shift?

I'm feeling that were sorta getting to the end of the "muscle car" high $$$ era due solely to the laws of supply and demand. YES these will always be some high priced cars, but the guys who have the means and the wants for these are just dwindling. Therefore the demand will be down.

Younger generations are not as interested in a '69 Camaro as say first gen Honda Civic Si. Hell I'm 52 and have the means for some nice cars, and have 3. But I still do not have the urge for a nice, 100 point stock car YET. You have guys selling off there collection and not getting back into it. Guys like Pratt for example.

Much like real estate, sooner or later there is a market correction and I can see cars coming down in pricing or "correcting" themselves. Maybe not a '69 ZL-1 but a '69 Z28 I can see going down. Cars that have a couple thousand built isn't as rare as 1 of 69. Those rare ones will always be up there, maybe not as high anymore.

yes the market is changing in the next 10 years pricing will really change

Car did not sell. probably going to Indy.

Panic and fear.....let's start cutting deals on all those rare parts!....because tomorrow, well.......???

I have no idea how to predict a market, stock market or classic cars etc. I have seen a change in muscle hobby for sure. For me to see the direction it’s going is kind of sad. I love muscle cars and Corvette’s. Always have and always will. They breathe life in me at times when life gets a bit crazy. That being said I just returned from Fall Carlisle and Hershey Pa swap meets two weeks ago. I’ve attended them both since the mid 1980’s. Carlisle vendor spaces seemed to be at most 65-70 percent of capacity. Back in the day there was a years long waiting list to sell there. Prime vendor spots are inside the 3 buildings at the fairgrounds. This year the main building had several empty spots and I saw someone selling socks inside this prime location. I’m 52 years old, plenty of guys my age and older still attended however very few younger people walking The aisles. I have come to know lots of these vendor/sellers over the years. So many of them tell me this is my last show. Reason being “I’m getting to old” and it’s not worth it anymore. Again, this is said to watch these incredible swap meets dwindling to what they have become. That being said I will continue to walk the swap meets till I am no longer able to. Buying parts that I don’t really need, but convincing myself “ just Incase I need it someday “. I will drive the hell out of my cars till I can no longer push in a clutch pedal or pull them into my garage with Manual steering. If you are lucky enough to own one of these great cars , drive it as much as possible. If your at a cruise night and a small kid walks by with his parents open the door and let him sit behind the wheel. They are our future. Rob

Folks that pay big $$ want desirable options, colors, etc. along with limited production. For example, I'll bet #55 would do a "moon shot" even in this market! Let's face it - if you have a half of a million dollar classic in your garage - you don't want to have to explain to people how cool it is. It needs to have the "look" along with the rarity - JMHO.

I agree, although the younger generations interest isn’t in honda civics but new and late model American muscle. First of all, the older muscle cars are EXPENSIVE and equally if not more expensive to build as a project. The horsepower most new muscle cars put out now, or the power potential of some of the late model used stuff is just insane. A coyote mustang with an off the shelf turbo kit will make 700 rwhp easily with the factory sealed engine. You can pick up a used coyote mustang for less than some project 60/70s muscle cars will bring, just to put it in perspective. You could also walk into any dodge dealer and buy brand new cars that will run 11s, 10s, or 9s off the showroom floor. These cars will also handle great, and have all the amenities like AC, leather, heated & cooled seats, navigation, etc. I’m not knocking the older stuff at all here, just stating the reason why most younger people are not as interested. Everything happens in cycles. The cars that are gaining steam now are the 80s muscle cars, because the kids who dreamt about them in high school are at the age where they want to relive their youth.

Yes, but most guys buying the ultra rare cars are in it for investment value.

No secret that I have been involved with ZL1 #4 since Camaro Parts Exchange acquired it in 1987. It became our in-house restoration project, completed 1989. The current owner purchased it from Doug Martz in 1995. Since it stayed here in SE WI, I remained involved. Over the last 31 years, the car has been in climate-controlled storage. During that time, the car was continually improved as more was learned about ZL1s. Also, with the help of Dan Palchanes, we were able to learn the history of the car back to its original owner. Dan provided [at NO charge] vintage newspaper ads, NOS Hauser dealer emblem and contact information for the original owner. We have vintage photos of it when Hauser raced it and as acquired by the original owner.

The complete history of #4 is known back to March 4, 1969 when it rolled off the assembly line. Ownership history is an important factor for those considering adding one to their collection as some ‘restored’ ZL1 Camaros had lengthy drag racing histories and were extensively modified. Several of these are “rebody” restorations. Some disclosed at auction, some not. Others do not have their original body tags. While #4 was raced, initially for the 1970 NHRA season, it was never cut. There is no need to question its provenance.

The ZL1 market is strong. This year several have sold; a pair for $1.2m at Mecum Kissimmee and another at Barrett-Jackson AZ for $770k. Another was sold privately by Legendary in Canada; they have another in their collection. I think Peter knows what he is doing.

There was no expectation that #4 would establish a ZL1 auction record-at either end. The owner is a reasonable man. See you at Mecum Indy 2019.

Thanks William
 

Well spoken from a knowlegable man. I think only a fool should question his assessment.

I was there on Sat and was astonished that it didn't go for much more.

Seems like just yesterday when #1 sold for $400,000.00 in 2012.

That's about where 289 Cobras were in 2012.

One of my all time dream cars...

/Rich

While a lot of these cars may not appeal to millennial's, there seems to be a growing desire to get into these muscle cars by kids the age of my son who is now 14. I say that because he wants a late 60's to early 70's muscle car and so do his close friends who are the same age. His one buddy is now building a muscle car with his grandfather, and another (also 14) is now working on a 340 duster with his dad. Looks like the three of them will all have stick cars just a couple years from now, and that's a good thing!

The chicago auction is not the best auction venue, and there have been quite a few ZL1'S at auctions and even some newly discovered in the past 5yrs. people that have the means to buy one can certainly wait for what they want. I would not put the final bid as the value of this car.

I think that the "sky is falling" attitude towards muscle cars is way over blown. Everything fluctuates in prices. Look at everyone who said brass era and old hot rods would be worth next to nothing because all of the people who were interested in those are or have died off. Negative, they're still worth a lot. Are they going for what they once were? Some definitely not, but some are, and most are still selling for decent bucks. Everything in life is cyclical, and maybe 60's muscle car prices will fall some, but they'll still be worth decent money.

Guys I'm not saying the sky if falling or NO younger kids are into the old stuff.

I do think just like people have stated, things come and go and trends go up and down. YES there will always be someone who wants them and will pay some good $$$ for and our lifetime. It is true that a lot of the younger guys are not that into the older muscle cars.

I have a friend who loves cars and speed. He is 33. Born here but family is from India. He has a very fast '09 Z06 'Vette. N/A it's a high 9 second car on a street tire and looks all stock. BUT for his fast car, he bought a Nissan GTR. It's a 9.30 car. ALL his friend and car guys BUT for me, are import guys. They seem to "not mind" my old stuff, but not one of them want to go for a ride let alone owning one. This guy is one of my builders that I work for and has $$$ to spend. I have said on a few occasions, "invest in an old muscle car. Spend $200 to $250,000.00 on a really nice old car that will be worth $$$ when you want to sell it". His reply is, "why, they handle terrible are not fast. My future wife's SUV is faster then most or all of them. And 99.99% of the people I know like the newer stuff". It's hard to argue when he bought her a 505Hp, 0-60 in 3.6 sec. SUV that she will drive in winter and can go anywhere in comfort. But tough to see these younger guys, that spend some $$$, all on these imports, but that's what they want.

I know I am not really looking at buying a new car again. I am looking at repairs of my current stuff instead of new. BUT using the $$$ saved on NOT buying new for some older stuff. Like not getting a new truck. My 2010 was my brother's who passed. Full jam 2010 Ram 1500. So instead of spending another 50K for a 2019, I will spend 30K on a '70-72 Chevy Short box, or 25K or so on a '78/79 Lil Red Express. And keep the Dodge for work and winter.

Like I have said, I'm 52 at this time. Just had my first child, a son, in Feb. All my car buddies over the years, and there are a lot of them that have kids, not 1 of there kids of have a old muscle car. Parents have Hemi RR, LS6 Chevelle's, W30 or GTO's lots of parents with old muscle cars. PLENTY of FOX body mustangs and Irocs. But nothing for the '70's let alone the '60's. I'm looking at a '78 Z28 for my guy now so he can have it for high school.

I have one guy about 6 years ago. Race a Tunnelrammed L88 Anglia back in the early '80's. His son turned 16 about 6 years ago. OFF to the racecar shop they go. Dad rolls out the Anglia with 2X4's out of the hood and slicks. Kid looks in and says, "NOT much room for a stereo". Dad puts the car away and says "you probably will never OWN or see this car".

That's today's youths...........

My 2 boys have been working on their muscle cars since they could hold tools, and while they both appreciate the old muscle - they really gravitate towards the new stuff. When I was their age, the old muscle was still the fastest stuff around - that's not the case anymore when you can buy 800HP off the showroom floor that has T/Control, ABS, AC and gets decent mileage..... I'm doing my best though!

Marlin agreed. My son will be a motorhead and hopefully go to the older stuff. Gotta start them young and explain WHY the older stuff is just COOL.

Marlin,
You are doing a great job bringing your kids up working on older cars. There is nothing like learning how to work and drive these old cars. I'm sure Ben can't wait to get that BB Nova on the road. Learning to drive stick will be fun for him also. Lot's of people today don't even know how to drive stick....

To be honest, he's about 50/50 most of the time between his TR'd Nova and his LS1 Trans Am. The T/A is a great first car, LS1, Ram Air, WS6, leather, 10 speaker stereo, T-tops and he ran a 13.09 without even changing the air box! It's really hard for today's youth to appreciate the old stuff when they can buy an LS1 car with 60k miles, not a ding or a dent for $10k! :dunno:

My 2 cents
 

I don't think you can judge a market on this car or just few examples. Also I agree the young generation is used to cars that can stop, turn and go fast for under 10k, so that segment is hooked on later models like we were back in the day. Yes our muscle cars were ahead of their time, like todays cars ...LOL


Our cars are collectibles, and a niche market, and like all market segments it has it's ups and downs. As has been pointed out, we all age, so have the muscle cars we grew up. Blue chip cars are like waterfront property they are not making anymore. The segments below really rare cars will have fluctuations, and corrections based on demand such as waning interest.


Rare also includes unrestored time capsules which although may have been produced in hi volume, but very few have been preserved.


Restored cars done to a high concours level are rare as well, and garner a premium based on who restored, quality of components and techniques used.


The bottom line is we all relate to these cars in different ways, and if you have a passion and love them markets fluctuations mean little. If you are heavily invested and look at these as investments and a business well there is risk like any investment.


Personally I like and own all types of cars from concours to survivor and all have their place. My most enjoyment is thrashing on my driver orange 69 RS/Z that started it all.

Putting a bit of perspective on that, There was no way I could have afforded a new $20k IROC back when I graduated high school in 1989. Instead, I wanted a 15-25 yr old muscle car that I could afford.

Back in 1989, a 1969 model was a 20 year old car. In 2018, a 1998 LS1 Z28 or T/A is a 20 yr old car. Seems about right that kids would be buying these cars.

Speaking of an 89 IROC, I am going to pick up another car tomorrow, Flame Red L-98 car.

344 original miles. :)

Zl #4
 

On the price of the ZL-1 bidding to $380.000. What I have observed over the years is any good car doesn't need to be SOLD through a auction house. They trade between the big collectors so no one knows there business. Auction cars are what I have felt to be the leftovers if that makes any sense. Just my opinion

Two handsome boys. My son is 20 and could care less about learning to even change oil in his car. Can’t figure out kids these days. He can change a tire.

Zl1
 

I agree with Mr.Yenko.

:shocked:

To make a blanket statement that auction cars are leftovers in my opinion is simplistic and just wrong. Many spectacular cars have been bought and sold at auctions. An auction is just another method to buy and sell cars. There is certainly a risk selling at a no reserve auction because the attendee's at the auction set the market (at that time and place) so there is risk, but also reward if you have at least two must have bidders. Obviously auctions can produce tremendous sale prices for sellers.


I will say I see many cars relisted on ebay auctions and other outlets and I would consider those "leftovers". The car in question had not been for sale for years and certainly not a leftover. Those who attended either were not in the market for a ZL1, or didn't like the options or restoration.


The only issue I have with an auction is the ability to really examine the car beforehand. If I had already examined a car and the seller wanted to sell at auction I certainly would have no issue bidding to my comfort level.

I don't believe in the market dying syndrome. If that were true all the brass era cars would be worthless right now. All the desirable muscle cars will still bring money for years to come.

Cool ZL1. Options don't bother me at all. I wouldn't kick it out of my garage. I mean common, it's a ZL1!! :biggthumpup:

Agreed, look at the supercharged Duesenberg that sold for 20 million at Monterey, twice its estimate. The best of the best musclecars will continue to escalate in value for many years to come.

I agree too. I do think some of the more moderate higher production number cars could come down.

There was one buyer there but it takes 2. Who knows how far the top bidder might have gone.I wonder how many people in the country have the means and are in the market for a ZL1. 10, 50, 500? Whats your guess? I would say less than 25 are currently looking for a ZL1 to add to their collection. Of course their are other buyers that would buy to flip.

Plenty of good cars come to auction without being shopped before hand. Many times there are multiple wanting the same car and the easiest way is to send it to auction. I had not heard of # 4 being offered anywhere before this auction. I kinda also believe the prices are down across the board on ZL1's right now. Seems they are not the "Flavor of the Week". I have no clue if they will rebound. After a week at SEMA it seems the flavor of the week is old 70's-80's pickup trucks. Man there are a ton of them being fixed up. It's like they are the next 32 Ford or Camaro.

Oh yeah.. Just like one certain Gold Yenko that sold at auction for well below its value. I believe that person lost more then his shirt in that DEAL. Oh trust me there is so much interest for your car.. don't worry and BOOM where were all the bidders. You guys know as well as I that ALL the TOP SHELF cars do not sell at Auction. Again just my OPINION

Auctions are a gamble if it's no reserve period. No one is disputing cars sell privately, but certainly your assertion that auction cars are leftover is not accurate for many cars bought and sold at auctions. People bring them to auction because of the exposure they receive and the hope on capitalizing. If your car in a no reserve auction you roll the dice, and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. A great deal depends on the venue and timing of the market. Owners should know going in what the risks are. Let's move on you made your point.