Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Recently purchased a 69 Camaro and trying to figure out what we have. We think it is a COPO, maybe a double. Haven't been able to rule it out. I've been searching the web and have read ALOT of post on this forum. Hoping you guys might be able to help me out.

I'll post a pic of the cowl tag when I figure out how but here is the information:

Body by Fisher
ST69 12437 NOR352686BDY
TR 725 59 B PNT
06A X11D80
The car has been a drag car all of its life and it has not been restored.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

the one from the Orlando craigs list. I had a verbal agreement with the seller to buy it, but couldn't get him to check trans & rear end codes. The bdy # doesn't line up with other copo's, no heater box and he had no paperwork. Was raced in PA according to the seller.
Check the axle code & look for CX tag on trans. I'll pm you my ph # if you need more help with what to look for. Been wondering who snagged it

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

To id where inline it falls, partial vin N664 :-)
From camaros.org - "In 69, the body number was assigned when the order was accepted, not when the body when built. Body numbers from cars that were built at the same time can vary significantly, depending on how quickly the order was fulfilled."
Sorry, NovaMob03 about the verbal. We obviously didn't know about that. We are actually friends with the guy we bought it from and were just under the impression he needed the money. We didn't know it was raced in PA, so that is new info for us. Maybe something else for us to research.
We know it is an RS, maybe an RS/SS. The orignal motor is gone but we believe it was a 427 motor. It's still in the area, but we haven't been able to locate it.
Not sure the tranny is original. Numbers are hard to read. It is still set up for racing and it still has the added straps to secure it to the car. We will probably have to pull it out to be able to clearly see it. We don't intend to take the motor out of the car for that.
We have looked for the BE on the axle tube but it's been painted and we haven't had the opportunity to sand it down yet, plus we are not sure exactly where we should be looking for that number. Would like to find that out of course.
It has the correct brake pedal. It has the correct original front disc brakes. It has the original correct 90 degree neck on the radiator. It has the casting number 5468309 master cylinder which was only on the copo and ss big block cars.
It has the correct cowl holes? on the firewall. There are no holes for emblems on the fenders. The car has obviously been modified for racing but the body is still very honest, nice original condition. There is almost no corrosion. It seems to be a real survivor car.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

No problem. It was too far away for me to inspect personally and I think he got tired of me asking him to check for this & that. He also agreed to deliver it, but since it was in pieces I'm sure it was easier for him to sell it local.
I saw the radiator, firewall punch & RS traits, but with the X-11 trim, figured it could be an SS and with flared 1/4's it was a toss up....great if copo, but too much work/$$ to resto if an SS/RS.
Hope it turns out in your favor [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

We know it was a big block car by the parts that are still on it. How would you differentiate an RS copo from an RS/SS big block? Are you saying there wouldn't be an RS copo?

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

RS can be COPO, but not SS. The sgl 3/8 fuel line was missing &amp; so was the heater box from what he told me. The X-11 can be COPO and SS. Front disc brakes can be SS &amp; COPO, so (for me)it came down to having a CX tag &amp; BE stamping
I only got 4 cell phone pictures that were not very good quality. Clearly a home run if it's an RS COPO as there are less than 10 known, I think. Even more rare might be the Frost Green with Green interior COPO...1 of 1 built [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

To be a double COPO, (COPO9561 and COPO9737) it would have had 15/16&quot; front sway bar, 140MPH speedo, and 15&quot; wheels from the factory. Of course, if it were a race car, who knows what might have been modified over the years, but the speedo might still be there.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

The 309 master cylinder was not specific to big block. All 69 Camaros, including Z/28 and SS350, received the same master cylinder. The same disc brake system your car apparently has was standard issue for all 69 Camaros when ordered with that option. With the exception of the JL8 4 wheel disc system. One small caveat is some very early cars my not have received the 309 master.

Good luck with the car and I hope another one has been found!

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

My mistake. I re-read the information about the master cylinder and I misread it the first time. But didn't non big block cars have different front disc brakes than big blocks? I think the fuel line may be there, I just don't think it is connected to anything. Something for us to follow up on. The speedo is gone and of course the 15&quot; factory wheels are obviously gone. So determining the front sway bar would be imperative. How would we measure it correctly? Does anyone have a link to a picture? Sorry, if that sounds silly. I'm learning. It has been a really fun and interesting process. I think my husband may have married a car enthusiast after all. I'm pretty sure it has the 12 bolt rear end, would that automatically make it a BE? It does have the heavy duty suspension as well. I think the axle and the springs are original. There's a plate welded on the side of the frame well for the exhaust hanger on the driver rear. Is that important? We believe that it had a factory 427. It was with the car until a few years ago. They didn't gain anything financially by telling us that part of the story but it is what got us wondering if it was a copo. Unfortunately we can't prove it yet.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

To measure, the sway bar, take a 15/16&quot; open end wrench, and see if it fits. Alternatively, take a crescent wrench, and tighten it on the sway bar, then measure between the jaws.

The rear end code is on the forward side of the passenger side axle tube. Go to camaros.org for a full description. There were probably 15-20 different codes for 69 Camaro 12 bolts. The first thing I would nail down is whether or not your 12 Bolt is a BE.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Okay, that's great! I'll do that.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Don't use anything abrasive on cleaning the axle tube! It could ruin the stamping.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

I too saw the ad on Craigslist and called the guy. He was a little difficult to get info from as he said the car was his dads and he didn't know much about it. I tried to get some info from him,including the axle code. I'm in Fort Myers for the winter and it's a hike up to where the car was, east of Orlando, so I didn't make it up there to look at it myuself. Plus, I think he said he had to be at work by noon, so it was a two day venture for me.

Hopefully the car does tun out to be a COPO for you. Sounds promising so far. If so, I'll probably kick myself for not going up, but on the other it is probably better off in your hands than mine and having to figure out how to get a car in pieces back to Michigan.

Good luck, hope it works out for you!!!

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

How do you know it has heavy duty suspension? You cannot tell just by looking at it. You would need paperwork to confirm. I tend to agree with NovaMob on the body # not lining up. That would be a real stretch for a COPO.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

If it is an X11 and has clear signs of being a bigblock car it must be a COPO.

How does the trans cross member look? http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml#Crossmembers

Here is the location of the axlecode.
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#axle

Jan

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

I was never really made aware of any real signs that it was a true BB car, other than the radiator. Not saying that it's not, but the previous owner just wasn't that helpful over the phone.
I also sent April pix of BE stamping, CX tag and George Zapora's # in case it may have been a Canadian car. Also recommended that she get pix from when it was raced in PA, post them here and attempt to locate past owners for possible documentation

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Okay, I was able to get under the car this morning and look at the axle tubing and transmission again. I can't get a good look on the tag for the transmission but the first letter is definitely a C and the second letter looks like it could be an X or A. I wish I could see it better. The year (next two numbers) however looks like it might have a 7 or a 2 which would mean it isn't the original transmission, but again I can't see it very well and I'm upside down using a mirror.
For the exciting part... I found the stamping on the rear axle tubing. There has been a ladder bar welded to the tube and it appears the tube was sanded down a bit probably to weld on the ladder bar. The numbers are very hard to read but I can clearly make out E 0510G and from what I am reading in Jerry MacNeish's book the next number would have to be a 2 because you can see the curve of the top of the 2. The E is directly beside the weld. My husband was laughing at me because I was screaming &quot;There's an E!!! I found an E!!!&quot; In addition, it also has to positraction code of letter E underneath the other numbers. And I did confirm it is the 12 bolt rear end. I think I'm excited, but I'm scared to get too excited!
NovaMob has a good idea about finding pictures from when it was racing. In addition to racing in PA we also know it was raced in the SE circuit for NHRA for years. There has to be some information on this car somewhere. I have a few pics that I have taken of the car but I have to figure out where I can put them so I can link to them from this site for people to see.
The previous owner had a lot of personal things going on and wasn't really in a good place. He just wanted it gone. Everytime he looked at it he thought of his dad who has passed away within the last few months. Maybe, as he goes through the grieving process we will be able to get more information from him.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Were you able to detect a color on the CA or CX trans. tag?...Black..yellow.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Posting pictures of the stampings (trans/rear) or other questionable items would take a lot of the guesswork out of the equation.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

It's really almost impossible to see the trans tag from the angle with a mirror and a spotlight and the space is so tight I can't get a camera in there. I didn't see a color but I have a very bright light reflecting off of it so I'm really not sure. I'm probably not going to be able to get a picture of the tag without dropping the transmission and since I don't think it's the right one it is doubtful I will do that. Right now the car has a racing 454 and a built Turbo 400 transmission. I think its safe to assume when he took the engine out, he took the trans out too. :-)
Also, as I have said in an earlier post the original engine was with the car until a few years ago. If I can find the motor and get the guy to at least let me take a picture of any identifying numbers still on the motor I think this would go a long way in helping to identify the car. They didn't put the 427 motor in non-copo cars, did they?
As for the the numbers on the rear axle, I tried to take pics of them today with my iPhone. That didn't work out too well so I will try again tomorrow with a digital camera and see if I get better results. As I said before I need to figure out where to put the pics online so I can provide a link.
The previous owner's dad told him the car was a copo. When he bought the car over 25 years ago it was a racecar and had always been a racecar. That was all that mattered which explains why some very important pieces to determine if it is or isn't a copo are missing. This would also explain why someone would've welded over part of the BE on the axle tube. I also feel very fortunate considering how long the car has been a racecar that they didn't cut into the dash to mount the roll bars and that I still have some interior pieces as well. The car even still has the original headliner and interior light.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

I use PhotoBucket to host all my pictures. It's easy to use and it's free.
James

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Thanks James. I will check that out.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

I think its great that a person with 1 post and no profile gets alot of handy copo info thats not readily available to the masses ..

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Chuck, I didn't pick up on any secrets. Did I miss something?

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

I learned alot..!

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think its great that a person with 1 post and no profile gets alot of handy copo info thats not readily available to the masses .. </div></div>

I agree...filling out your profile should be a priority for all newcomers...the real value of this site is the transparency...nobody hiding behind the curtain (except maybe Cumby, but that's for a differrnt thread)..anyway...all you newcomers, please fill us in on the details of your pedigree [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] we love to know the real story [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WILMASBOYL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think its great that a person with 1 post and no profile gets alot of handy copo info thats not readily available to the masses .. </div></div>

I agree...filling out your profile should be a priority for all newcomers...the real value of this site is the transparency...nobody hiding behind the curtain (except maybe Cumby, but that's for a differrnt thread)..anyway...all you newcomers, please fill us in on the details of your pedigree [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] we love to know the real story [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] </div></div>

Valid Point.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

yeah, like Chuck fills out his. Nuthin' says who ya are like a link to an ebay store [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthrea...3742#Post463742 I take back my &quot;nice car&quot; post. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

LOL! Clearly, I have no pedigree. But I really do think everyone's help says a lot about the type of people on this site. So willing to help a newbie. I really appreciate it! I have read so many of the post on here trying to educate myself and this thread has been awesome! I'm so glad I'm not the only person learning from it. And it will stay around for a while,so maybe it will benefit a few people in the future as well. I'll be working on the car some more tomorrow with my husband and I'll try to get some pics up. Thanks again. You all have been fabulous. And just so you know, I'm hooked. I have had so much fun with this car. Even if we find out it isn't a copo, I can still say it is a very special car.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Found out the car was known as the &quot;Keystone Warrior&quot; for a while. The previous owners dad bought the car in 1987 we believe and this was the name that was being used at that time. The car was burgundy then and may have had gold lettering.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

When you take the pictures from under the car, please include one of the trans crossmember in whole and one close up for the area where the trans mounts to the crossmember.

Jan

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Isn't it an automatic?

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

i have it 14 cars from a yenko from johnson chevy in wis. x-44 d80 car.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Jan,
I'm not sure what I'm looking at but I'll go back to the link you sent me when I get under there.
Unreal,
Yes, it is an automatic.
Supercomp 8.90,
Wow! That's pretty exciting!!
Getting a late start today. We'll have some pics up by the end of the day.
Thanks everybody!

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

My point was that a TH400 would not have the cross member that was pictured in an earlier post.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

That's 14 VIN's away from that Yenko. Doesn't mean anything....

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

The link has pictures of manual trans crossmembers. If it had an TH400 originally the crossmember should be an oval tube.

Like this one:
http://htsmall.rickscamaros.com/asse...5/sku/CM-3.jpg

Jan

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

fourteen body #s on the cowl tag.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/...t=BEaxle-1.jpg

Trying to link to the pics. This is a picture of the axle code. I added an arrow to indicate where the E is and I will also link to the original pic without the arrow in case it is distracting. Give your eyes time to focus. It is very hard to see in the pic but it is most definitely an E. The B is covered by the weld as you can see in the pic but the number is BE 0610G2.