Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Tim,

When you say NAPA is the same as Gates, do you mean dimensionally? Or does Gates manufacture NAPA belts?

The reason I ask is that I have been having a hard time getting Gates belts. Is there a business relationship between the two?

JB

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I use rockauto.com for all my random tune up stuff. They sell all the various makers' belts. Lots of Delco stuff, too. I even got my gas tank and radiator from them. The shipping was really cheap on their large items, like the gas tank.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbsides</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tim,

When you say NAPA is the same as Gates, do you mean dimensionally? Or does Gates manufacture NAPA belts?

The reason I ask is that I have been having a hard time getting Gates belts. Is there a business relationship between the two?

JB </div></div>

The NAPA belts are Gates. Surely, they do not run two separate production lines for the product (especially v belts when you consider the popularity of them today ). Gates does all of the rubber product for NAPA as well as the water pumps.

I also suspect Delco is all Gates as well. Mind you, Delco makes nothing. They are no more than a repackager of product today.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Did some finagling today and it fits much better.

1) I trimmed around 2 inches off the radiator end of the radiator hose. That pulled the hose bend away from the air cleaner.
2) Added the thicker carb to intake gasket. It's about 1/8&quot; thicker than the previous one.
3) Used a couple of air cleaner to carb gaskets and used a 1/2&quot; section of 5/8&quot; heater hose for the top vent grommet.
4) Rotated the driver's side elbow to fully ride up against the heat riser valve. I also was able to rotate the clamp 180 degrees to fit in behind the heat riser valve.
5) I removed 2 of the 3 washers that I had under the two mounting points of the rear A/C triangle bracket, leaving only one washer to space the bracket up just enough to barely touch the valve cover.
6) I squeezed a permanent dent into the passenger side corrugated hose in the area that it passes over the unique cut out in the A/C triangle bracket.
7) The valve covers are using the correct 1/4&quot; thick 455HO valve cover gaskets so they can clear the oil deflector cages. The regular gasket is 1/8&quot; thick on the D-port 400, 455 engines.

Here are some photos of today's fun:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000069.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000071.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000073.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000068.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Here is how it sits now, with the bevel on the valve cover.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000076.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000080.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000074.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000079.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

real nice! you need one of those see thru hoods [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Looking great Steve! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

I hear ya about trimming the upper radiator hose. The 69's are the same way, and need a good 2&quot;-3&quot; lopped off the end that goes into the radiator.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Fellow member BRUCE from up in Alaska sent me a pair of BE rods for the Formula. Not only did he send me the rods for free, he cut down a tree, carved out a hand-made, secondary metering rod protection box with his chainsaw and then mailed the entire thing to me. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Take a look at this contraption!

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000081.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000082.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000083.jpg

Man, you guys sure are inventive up there, North of The Great White North. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I've been doing a little bit of carb tuning the past few days. I ended up using the same recipe of jets, primary and secondary rods that I used in the 1972 T/A project. This recipe was passed along to me from other far more knowledgable people.

The end result is the following for my original 7042273 carb: 74 jets, 44 primary rods and BE secondary rods. The 1972 7042273 carbs were way too lean from the factory and definitely need more fuel than the emissions lean factory setup, if you want them to run right. A lot of it can also be attributed to the fact that gasoline today has 10% ethanol in it which makes for a leaner, fuel mixture. The Formula is running the stock 068 cam, a four speed, and a 3.42 rear gear which is the same driveline I had in the T/A.

I gotta tell you, the car really comes alive with this setup. When you hit the sweet spot in the power band at around 3,000 rpm, the rear tires break loose in first gear, regardless on how angrily your foot is positioned on the gas pedal. I'll post some video when I can figure out how to drive, shift and film at the same time.

I sent the carb to Cliff's High Performance and he did an awesome job. The carb ran great when tested on the &quot;seat of the pants dyno&quot; in the prior mismatched cam/high compression state but once I did the engine overhaul, I noticed the carb was little lean on the top end for my post engine rebuild combination. (since we didn't know what was inside the engine at the time, he tuned it to what he thought best).

Here are the measurements for the combination of parts I had in my tool box at the time:

Jet/Rod...Cruise area...WOT area......Secondary Rod
71/43 = 2.5070..........3.4283..........CR .0550 S (72 T/A 7042273 stock configuration)
73/42 = 2.7999..........3.6545
73/43 = 2.7332..........3.6545
74/47 = 2.5659..........3.7699
74/44 = 2.7803..........3.7699..........BE .0413 S (72 T/A tuned configuration)
74/43 = 2.8486..........3.7699..........BE .0413 S (Formula tuned configuration)
72/39 = 2.8769..........3.5406..........DA .0443 M (Cliff tuned configuration)

At the moment I have the 43 primary rod in the carb and it's a touch richer than it would be with a 44 rod, since it is a new engine I dont want to lean it out too much. If I do my math correctly, the &quot;tuned&quot; setup listed above is around 10% richer than the stock setup which looks like it somehow offsets the 10% ethanol content.

Once the weather clears I will play some more.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Spent the day doing my mid-winter, out of hiberaton, engine start up.

It was a nice day so I got the hemi charger up and running for the first time in a year. She started right up, so I took her out for a slow ride on the 40+ year old bias ply tires that the original owner installed back in the day. Sure rides different than the Firebird. :-)

There's nothing like modern radials on a second gen Firebird. They ride soooo nice!

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000096.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Awesome stuff; very enjoyable to follow. Thanks for the details and pictures/video!!

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I have been hunting down some parts to try to assemble a correct unitized distributor for the car. I recently got one 1973 1112203 off of ebay, a 1974 1112810 from a trade for an old holley carb I wasn't using, and got a rebuilt 1973 1112203 from an auto parts store. I do still need an actual 1972 1112133 in case anyone has a useable core out there.

These contraptions were a standard option on the 455HO Formula and optional on the Trans Am. They were somewhat notorious for glitches, being the first self-contained transistorized ignition developed by Pontiac. In evolutionary terms, if the the later HEI distributor was a modern human, then the Unitized Distributor was a Neanderthal.

The big problem was that the parts were unique and never produced by the aftermarket. The distributor cap, the rotor, the coil, and most of all, the wire set were unique and insanely expensive even back in 1972. The ignition module was housed in the base with wires that connected to the coil pack. The wire set was a molded one piece octopus that required complete replacement as a unit if you burned or broke a single wire. It sold new from the dealer, for several hundred dollars back when a regular points ignition wire set was around $20. So when something happened, the entire distributor was usually tossed and a newer HEI was installed in its place for 1/4 the price.

Here's one assembled:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...IhBUw60_57.jpg

Here's the three I have now

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000140.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000141.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

The cap is more of a fixture for holding the wire &quot;octopus&quot; and has no internal termainals for the spark plug leads. It has a spring that sits on the top coil terminal and a spring loaded carbon button that is inserted into the center of the bottom of the cap. (the cap on the eft is cracked and missing the carbon button).

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000145.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000144.jpg

The coil pack sits on top of the wire &quot;octopus&quot; and two long screws go through the coil pack, then the wire set and cap and into the distributor base.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000142.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000143.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

And here is the notorious wire set. The eight spark plug wires are permanently molded into the center ring. If there was a problem with one wire...you had a problem with the whole set and had to replace it as a unit. Big $$$

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000146.jpg

Here is a chopped up center ring.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000147.jpg

There is a way to split the center seam of the molded rubber ring with a razor and insert a regular wire set into the terminals. I will be trying that just to see if it will work. Others have done this with good results in the past.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Using the original 1972 service manual, I went through the diagnosis and testing procedures with an ohm-meter as described in the manual. All three distributors, modules and coils packs tested out fine. The common problem with these distributors was overheating the coil pack and melting the windings until it shorted out. If the coil windings were going, then the module was overworked and failed as well. This usually all happened without warning.

I have a pile of original repair work orders from London Motor Products, the dealer that sold the car new. There are multiple work orders for replacing the distributor or coil pack or some other no-start condition.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000153.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000154.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Here's the internal module:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...P1000149-2.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...P1000150-1.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Performed an autopsy on the chopped up spark plug octopus (calimari?)

I initially tried using a hot knife but then just switched to a razor blade. I sliced the seam and then used a combination of Angry Old Man Strength and the razor to peel the top section away. It looks like the factory assembled these units with some type of weatherstrip adhesive/rubber cement. Definitely some tough stuff.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000158.jpg

After slicing and fileting the top off, here is what appeared:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000163.jpg

It is a pretty simple design. The wires have a terminal end with a tip that resembles a Chevy bowtie. The Bowtie inserts through the eight rectangular slots and is preset into the correct position around the circle.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000165.jpg

Here is a close up of the &quot;Bowtie&quot;. It can rotate 360 degrees to any position. There are two styles, 6 of the end-mounted tips and 2 of the side mounted tips. Each wire is stenciled with the number of the cylinder it goes to: 1,3,5, and 7 on one side and 2,4,6 and 8 on the other, preset in the 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000168.jpg

And here is the base with all 8 wires withdrawn. Looks like a reasonably easy swap of the terminal ends onto another set of wires and then reseal the top with a suitable adhesive.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000175.jpg

I will update once the replacement donor wires arrive.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I spent some time last night soaking the intact set of wires in some purple stuff and them scrubbed them in soapy hot water. They looked pretty good. No cuts or slices anywhere. I was able to pull the spark plug wire boots back to see the spark plug terminals. Now I see why they tossed this wire set. Almost all of the spark plug leads were broken and/or replaced. The original end is a 135 degree bent end. I ordered some replacement terminals from Taylor Wire and will replace them all.

The funny thing was that all I could find was 45 degree terminals...that was until I figured out that one manufacturer's 45 degrees is another manufacturer's 135 degrees. Add 135 and 45 and you get 180. :-)

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000183.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000177.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000178.jpg

You can see the silk screened numbers and &quot;Packard TVR Suppression 1Q-73&quot;

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000182.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Sharp Steve. Persistence pays off.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

As always..........................I'm impressed!

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

From the one you cut apart you could probably make molds off and start fabricating new ones.

Looks like it would be simple to do.


Always interesting to read about your work with details.


Jan

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Just got back from my Tuesday night body shop class at the local polytech high school. My ongoing project is the Formula.

As you may know from following this thread, the car had NOS GM quarters put on it back in the 1980s, when they were still available. Unfortunately, at the time, the trunk drop offs were not available and the body guy did an amazing (though completely incorrect) hand-made version of drop offs. He used the existing trunk portion and then hand-made a flat panel and brazed it to the edges of the inner quarter.

Now that the aftermarket has finally come out with the reproduction trunk drop offs, I decided to replace the hand-made ones myself. (after I got an crazy estimate of several thousand dollars per side to replace them at resto shop).

The wonderful thing about this polytech adult education course is that you pay $400 for 12 weeks (every Tuesday night) and you get to use all their tools and expertise of a professional body man who is teaching the course. It is an amazing time!

Here is the before shot of the handmade boilerplate inner quarter:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000122.jpg

And after I used a cutting wheel to remove the major section and then a grinder to grind the edge of the brazing off, where it mated to the outer edge of the quarter panel.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000129.jpg

Since the far end of the hand made panel was properly welded and mated to the inner quarter structure and matched the flat section of the new repro dropoff exactly, I left that in place and then made mounting flanges from a two-inch section of the prior hand-made drop off.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000186.jpg

Instead of drilling and welding the dropoff in, we decided to use what a lot of modern body shops are using these days: structural panel adhesive. This stuff is amazing. It seals the bare metal and provides corrosion protection between the panels as it bonds them together with an adhesive that is stronger than the steel itself.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000200.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I made a template out of a couple of manila file folders and then placed it on the the repro dropoff and marked off for cutting. I used a plasma cutter (a really fun tool) and trimmed it down to size until the panel just popped in exactly. These repros fit very well, right out of the box when it comes to aligning with the edges of the GM quarter.

Here's the repro panel being trial fit:

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000190.jpg

The adhesive it premixed in the funnel that attaches to the dual cannister and is first applied to the mounting areas and brushed over any bare metal area, as well as any area that is to be a bonding point. Then a liberal amount is squeezed out onto the panel and the panel is put into place. A bunch of vise grips are then used to clamp it in place, but not too tight. You dont want to squeeze out all the adhesive.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000193.jpg

Yeah, I know that's sacriligious to use that clamp on the paint...but the paint is old and bad and I have a piece of cloth under it. This was the only way to get the upper portion held in place. The clamp is pressing on a section of wood across the upper bonding seam. Plus, they are my Grandfather's woodworking clamps from three quarters of a century, ago.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000195.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

It takes 45 minutes for the adhesive to set up. It turns from grey to green when it is cured. I used a heat gun to warm up the panel and that speeded up the process, since I only had three hours for the evening class and there was only an hour left when we started clamping. After several hours it is harder than the steel.

And here is the semi-final result until we do the cosmetic body filler to get rid of any visible seams.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000202.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000205.jpg

Oh, and in case you thought I did this all in one three hour class...I didn't. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] It took two classes, one to remove the old dropoff and the other to trim and install the new one. So, six hours total.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Neat stuff Steve!

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

That adhesive sounds great, when I first started to read about this I thought &quot;Is he going to weld there and destroy the paint?&quot;

This stuff must be great!


Jan

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jannes_z-28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That adhesive sounds great, when I first started to read about this I thought &quot;Is he going to weld there and destroy the paint?&quot;

This stuff must be great!


Jan </div></div>
panel bond adhesive is some good sh!t.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

It is an amazing product. It does what welding can do, without the heat damage to the paint and having to drill and weld up holes which can lead to a starting point for future corrosion.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I was leery of it when I first heard of it as well.

After the body shop supplier demonstrated the bonding of a seam and actually used frame clamps and a hydraulic press to try and pull the bonded seam apart, the sheet metal ripped before the bonded joint had a chance to fail...
I was amazed...

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I figured I might as well join the twentieth century, technology-wise, now that's it's the twenty-first.

I'm a strict follower of the Automotive Hypocratic Oath: &quot;Above all, do no harm&quot;

Since it's not really a structural part of the body and I didn't want to do more damage to a solid car in an effort to install a correct replacement part, I decided to go the adhesive route. The body guy indicated that there are some adhesives that are useable in conjunction with the assembly line clamping spot welders, so you could have the best of both worlds if you were trying to accurately reproduce the factory &quot;crunched&quot; look of the spot welds at the bottom of the quarters and fender lips, in additon to having total adhesion and corrosion protection.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

They have been gluing real aircraft parts together for a few decades so why not cars?

Jan

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I sold commercial printing &amp; coding/printing equipment for a few years...
A silk screen would be a terribly inefficient way to linearly code something.
The <span style="font-weight: bold">Packard TVR Suppression 1Q73</span> was in all likely hood done in line while the wire was being manufactured, with a rotary letter press, (rubber stamp on a wheel which is inked with either an anilox roller, or some inking system)
http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000182.jpg

The cylinder indications were also done with a rubber stamp (probably not rotary and most likely while the individual wire sets were being put together) although the impression pressure was much higher as indicated by the &quot;halo's around the numbers&quot; where the paint/ink squeezed out.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Back to the unitized wire set rebuilding.

Received the new wire set for the &quot;octopus&quot; and new spark plug terminal ends for the old wire set.

I got a box of 50 of the spark plug terminal ends and installed eight of them with the correct crimping tool. It's amazing what having the right tool for the right job will do! The angles on these terminals are an exact match to the originals.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000210.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000208.jpg

The new donor wire set I got was from Lectric Limited. No one makes unitized wire sets, so these are for the regular points style ignition. They are date coded 3rd quarter 1971. I removed the tower boots and terminals from each new wire. I then carefully removed the bowtie terminal ends from each of the remnants of the original cut wires from the &quot;octopus&quot; with a small screw driver to pry the edges up and then a needle nosed pliers to bend the tabs.

Once I got the terminals off, I noticed that not only did the original wires have a section of the inner graphite core stripped and folded over to lie against the terminal base, they also had a one inch section of copper wire stuck into the end of each wire and bent over to also form a contact with the terminal. In addition to that, the terminal has an internal barb that pierces the wire and touches the internal graphite wire. I used the new crimping tool to affix each bowtie terminal to the wires. I also use some White Out to number each wire so I knew which is which.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000212.jpg

After getting all the wires matched to length, (the new set has the correct number of long, medium and short wires that match the unitized wires length), I applied a layer of black weatherstrip adhesive to both sides of the octopus and the channels where the wires set. I inserted all the wires and seated the terminals through the octopus. I then installed the octopus on the cap and bolted the coil down on top which created the perfect clamp for the wire set. I also used a bunch of large binder clips and clothes pins to squeeze the outer edges together and will let it sit overnight.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000214.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Did you check the conductivity and resistance before you clamped it?


Jan

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Yes. There is a slght problem though with checking ohms on carbon cores versus wire core spark plug wires. The old set was very sensitive to how hard you pressed the probe to the wire ends. The new set were very close to each other, resistance-wise.

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Here is the 1112203 (1973) distributor all back together with the new wires and octopus installed.

I checked the resistance of all the plug wires with an ohm meter and they are the same as when they were single wires with the old boot style terminals, so nothing was affected by the transplant.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000222.jpg

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000224.jpg


Here's a question for any unitized experts out there:

Both of my coils have this strange &quot;hammertone&quot; black finish on them. Is this how it should look? Or should it be gloss black like the NOS coil packs I have seen.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/t...c/P1000225.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

I got a Valentines Day gift from MIDYR up in Ontario who was able to get the Ontario ownership search done through the DMV up there. Thanks Lance! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

You have to have a Canadian driver's license to purchase the search. It costs $20. Also note how it shows the word &quot;VOID&quot; all over the document when you scan or copy it. The actual document has an intricate green watermark that covers the entire page.

Neat stuff! It shows the attorney William Nursey being the listed owner as of January 4, 1973. So it looks like he put it in his own name after only one year and not after the three year lease expired, as I had thought before. Maybe a perk of his position as a partner in the law practice?

I also shows the second owner James Robinson, having purchased it from WIlliam Nursey on July 4, 1985. As the prior research indicates, Robinson put on the NOS quarters and painted the car and then sold it to the late owner in British Columbia. That man's widow then sold it to Grant in 2011, who sold it to me in 2012.

I have tried to locate both gentlemen but have come to a dead end. William Nursey is listed as a General Counsel for London Life Insurance Co. in London Ontario, although the date of that info is several years old. I called their General Counsel's Office and they did not have him listed as an employee. He may have passed on several years ago.

James Robinson's Ontario phone numbers are disconnected from the old Hemmings ad listed previously in this thread as well as numbers from my old paperwork.

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/use...p_2_edited.jpg

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/use...p_3_edited.jpg

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Documentation............you can never have too much!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Congrats Steve!

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Gotta love Canadian records! (and Canadian car-people, too) [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: The New Project: Part Deux!
 

Steve knowing your quest for rare Pontiacs... I thought you could try to run this one down next... looks like a Black and Blue 73 T/A SD.

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/use..._1280_crop.jpg