Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

-----At what point in the future, once the paperwork gets perfected (if it does) and repro parts become closer to original (if they do) will the fakes actually become real???? Im sorry to bring this up but if its a perfect (and I do mean perfect) fake in all ways would the car become real at that point????........Bill S

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Because of the fact that many of the reproduction parts
are getting so good today, knowledgeable people started
to point to the documentation as the only way to "buy real".
Now, we have better fake documentation. Then it gets aged
better to look more real. Now we have sellers on eBay
trying to sell VIN plates, cowl tags, etc.. You can all see
exactly where this is going - can't you? If the suggestions
made here are correct ( so many good fake cars ), what will
happen to the real cars? Only those known for many, many
years to be real will survive with high prices. I fear for
all the other real Z/28's, L/78's, etc. that have not been
"known" by and large. Those cars will be cast in doubt for
a long time and this will have to affect their respective
values. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

The biggest problem with GM musclecars is these cars were never intended to be collectible. Noone foresaw that people would want to collect them and as such the steps needed to ensure future provence were not taken. Ford and Chrylser while not making cars for collectors at least had the good thought of including engine and other pertinent data in the cowl tags and VINS. This in my opinion (and a good many other non-brand specific collectors) will always ensure Ford and Chrysler cars bring more money..That and the fact that the true hi performance cars from each are truly rarer than the GM cars..GM had a far greater market share in the 1960's and 1970's than either and as such just plainly made more cars...

This is of course is dependant on people just plainly viewing the cars as rare or collectible in the first place..Interestingly some high quality "factory original" restoration shops are now moving away from "original" cars and more into Day 2 or "pro touring" as I would imagine the finite supply of real parts, the propensity for fraud with "real" parts..ie: restamps" and the sheer ridiculous money are making the consumers move away from "original" and into other areas. Thus in order to survive they move to other areas of restorations.

The idea that musclecars will always be worth the money seen today doesn't make sense to me...When the market corrects, as all collectors markets do..coins, guns, cars, art, etc..there are going to be a lot of people left holding the bag..

Im curious why do people feel the cars will continue to go up?? Can anyone here realistically see the day when a 1970 Malibu is worth 70k, when the cost of just living..gas, housing (which let's be honest more people would rather spend 70k in housing anyway..as often quoted.."Land..they don't make it any more"), raising kids, food, etc..continues to go up..Where are all the people with an extra 70k laying around going to come from??? This is assuming that future genrations even find the value in a 1970 car that really only did 1 or 2 things well and compared to current offering, maybe only has stlye going for it..Is there anyone on this board that collected Model A and T's and pre-war cars in the 1950 or 1960's...Keep in mind wasn't too long ago car collectors thought those prices would always go up as well...One could argue the musclecars have more flair and certainly more power, but once the guys that grew up with them die off..so does the vast majority of collecotr interest..the new generation buys the cars oftheir youth, which just so happen to have all the power and flair, but also are cheaper, better engineered and offer more ammenities..

Any thoughts??

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Last time I checked they don't make 60's cars anymore either. Sure, they may morph into something more than they were, but they are still a 60's car. When these cars were new, an entry level car was 2,500. Now an entry level new car is 25,000. I am not sure if classics will continue to go up but inflation will continue.

Jason

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

How many and what type of cars do you own. Trying to figure out why are you so concerned how the market will correct. Would I own as many cars as I do now if the market was weak, probably not. Would I enjoy them as much hell yes. Am I really concerned about the market, not especially because I enjoy the heck out of my cars. Can I predict the future heck no, I'll leave that to the speculators and know -it- alls. Lifes to short enjoy it before its too late....

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

"Where are all the people with an extra 70k laying around going to come from??? "

Millions of people need homes but you only need a few thousand financially solvent(and rabid) collectors to keep the valuations climbing.Everyone here knows the diff between a fugazi and diamond(including the starter of this thread),if not all they have to do is pm one of the sages to get a feel on the cars authenticity.You say in fifteen years noone will be interested in these as the boomers start denture fittment..I will be one of those geriatrics cruzing my rides till I drop and I'm pretty sure I ain't goin ta be alone.Pursuant to our other conversation BJ is (no matter how over the top) the true definitive valuation of muscle-call it a what you want but the it has become Mecca for anyone looking to get the max for their merchandise and the register rings every January with steadily increasing prices.Back on topic the point is it's clearly down to genuine people on this site and TC to make it as hard as possible on the greedy by NOT POSTING SHEETS,BROACH MARKS,STAMPINGS,and other pertinent info that will ultimately make our worst fears come true.These sites are the last line of defense,period.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Been watching too much Donnie Brasco latey..lol..I actually just sold all of my cars within the last year, as I personaly feel most of the cars, especially the original cars are way over priced and fraud, whether it is bogus paperwork or restamped parts is too rampant. I also do not think the price trend will contine and I wanted to re-allocate the money to more stable investments. The topic is interesting to me and I thought in light of some of the post concerning the value of a clone or what used to be called a hot rod...a car that is nothing like it started interesting..

Something I'm not sure if many have thought about is the correlation between short term rates, real estate, and the current boom. It is certainly interesting how prior to the drastic historic annomaly in short term rate drop of 2001-2005, the musclecar market was soft...When realestate and musclecars took off is when the govt regualted a recession with short term rates (ie: the Fed Fund rate). Now that rates are up, realestate is self correcting to a normal market...some might say soft or certainly slow in most areas, what will happen with musclecars.

While prices among hardcore collectors might stay up,I'm really not sure how many "hardcore" collectors there are. I would bet there aren't as many as most will think. As most economist will tell you, the main reason the economy isn't in better shape, which isn't to say it is in bad shape now, is directly related to the war. Once the consumer confidence truly returns and stocks make rallys and are generating decent returns, how many guys will bail on musclecars for more traditional investments. Given that there are more musclecars "known" about today and the acessiblity is greater as a result of the internet today vs. the first "boom" I would suggest that once the cars reach a certain plateau they will drop in value. Look at it this way..there are only a certain amount of people able or inclined to pay 100k (or even 50k)for a car that gets driven only in nice weather. Once these people buy the cars and own what they want the remainder (the cars that is) have no where to go, so the result is the prices drop as demand decreases. Right now musclecars are hot, but at one point so were Beannie Babies..it still boils down to price drives demand..the higher the price the lower the demand hence the price eventually corrects to what the market will bear and when looking at a commodity the price usually drops quickly and below where most expect...We aren't talking about cars that as a general rule only 1000 were made...So if we are saying that a LS6 of which there were 4475 made and even 20% survive (much higher I would bet) we are discussing almost 900 cars. So if the current price is 100k then for that to remain there has to be a majority that will and more importantly CAN pay that much. That is 447 people...are there really that many people out there??? Not sure...

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

I guess one of the fundamental problems I have with your interest in keeping certain info inaccessible is doesn't the lack of sharing promote fraud that is undetectable or goes undetected? If it weren't for the sharing of info wouldn't so much of the history of these cars be lost. Not for nothing but wasn't there a "well known" car that was shown to be not what it was represted as a result of sharing of thoughts and info. What happens if only the financially solvent get the info? How and who should get to enjoy these cars history...just the few that have the funds to buy them? Is it the guys fault that enjoys reading about LS6's, Yenkos and the such but can't afford them that GM didn't preserve a historical record to weed out fakes. I guess one of the most basic problems I see is the catch 22 or double standard that a lot of guys with high dollar GM cars have..that is they want the prices and subsquent cash windfall in their favor, but they aren't willing to accept the assocaited risk..that the cloners, fakers, etc will eventually make their original cars and "re-creations" undistinguishable..I guess the point is if you want a "safe" muclecar investment with respect to clones go buy something where the VIN is guaranteed to be the real deal..ZL1, Hemi, etc..not "mass muscle" like Z28's, LS6's, etc..

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

I think you are over analyzing the market. There is no better place to put your money right now since real estate has leveled out(it has not dropped like many predicted). The stock market, forget about that. So collectibles is really the only place to make any money. But this situation isn't about collectibles. It's about somebody that has always wanted a car like an LS6 convertible. A real one costs $450K so he can't afford it. A well done clone that 99% of the people can't tell the difference he will buy for $150K. It has nothing to do with the real value of the clone, it has to do with what he really wants. 9/11 changed everything and people are going about their lives differently. I don't think the car market is going to adjust like it did in the late 80's early 90's because of 9/11. There are too many people willing to spend their money for enjoyment. And musclecars = https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

While I certainly don't believe the fake LS6 ragtop in question was described accurately, and feel it was without question blatently misrepresented, I definitely can't say I feel that everyone with a restored musclecar or supercar should hurry up and sell them off before they are all worth pennies on the dollar... if you believe that, i think you're in a bigger dream world than the guy who thought he bought a real, documented LS6 ragtop for 150k. (if such a transaction even happened) Just as diamonds will always be able to be distinguished from cubic zirconia, bogus cars will always be able to be distugished from real ones. Maybe not by everyone, but the true enthusiasts will know how to tell the difference and will be able to spot a fake. That's pretty much how it is already, with diamonds and cars alike. All the focus on this car was how good the build sheet looked, (which was quickly discovered as fake, with tons of errors i might add) but I bet if you took the fake paperwork out of the equation all together and just looked at the car itself, you'd find just as many inaccuracies and clues that it was a "put-together" car. Just like when the repro 69 Camaro bodies came out and everyone was immediately worried that it would bring forward a host of phony cars...has anyone actually SEEN one of these bodies? There are more differences from an original than you can count. You'll have your hands full just trying to get the fenders and doors to fit right let alone trying to turn one into an undetectable bogus supercar...

If these cars are such overpriced wastes of money and frauds ("especially original cars") and destined to be worth nothing, why are you here on this site? As someone who already sold their car(s), i would expect you to profess how they all will soon be worth nothing...as someone obviously in it for the investment rather than the love of the cars, it would be hard to admit an error if you sold your cars while they were still climbing in value. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

If you don't mind me asking, what car(s) did you recently sell?


I'm not a part of this "baby boomer" demographic that you claim are the only folks keeping this hobby alive, and am actually a "gen X'er" that is supposedly not going to have any interest in these cars. I'm anxiously awaiting this day you speak of, when I can buy chevy musclecars and supercars for pennies on the dollar. I also know many others my age (or younger)that would also be interested in buying some cheap supercars when they become available for next to nothing... Let me know when it happens... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif