Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

Just out of curiosity for you folks lucky enough to dabble in the 69 copo's, how much does nom matter in an otherwise documented car, if its restored correctly.
I mean how much is the price affected. I realise these cars are rarer than 70 Z's, but you can see where I'm going with this.

Also how much if any bearing is put on original body panels and parts vs. replacement. The "pieced together" 70 in this thread is interesting. If the car is a true Z its worth something, but given the rising costs of correct parts for these cars, what effect does that have on project car pricing if any?.
As more of the cars available as projects are of a lets say..less complete variety, what effect that will have on value?
I would project values will continue to rise as the available stock of project cars (and their condition), dwindles.
Anyone who strts one of these projects now, and sees it through to completion is going to have a lot more invested at the end of the day than what a lot of the current finished cars are bringing.
Maybe the "good" 70 Z-28's are a bargain even now?
I mean, that Citrus 70 on ebay looks not bad for 19k, yeah its not a full resto, but it looks relatively complete and decent.
Mark.

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

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'70 Z-28s are extremely interesting cars that seem to be catching on finally as they should. Good cars, unrestored survivors or quality restorations are few and far between. As for the issue of COPO '70 Z's........a different spoiler is a bit of a stretch to call these cars COPOs in the same venue as the '69 cars. Actually when these cars were new I worked at Daileys Chevrolet in Erie, Pa. (also bought a new '70 camaro 350 4spd, F41, D80 etc.) and the general concensus was the smaller spoiler was preferred. It did seem like almost all of the later built 70s had the 3 piece as I recall. Still two here in Erie from Daileys, one nice, one rough as hell. As these cars become more recognized the future looks bright as to their value, either spoiler not being the issue. Colors, options and correctness along with docs will be the factor. It already takes "69 Z money to secure a good one.

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George,

When I spoke to Piggins in 1985 he was really quite clear on the issue of the COPO spoiler cars being built to get parts approved for "racing". You have your opinion about them and I guess you will not be buying a COPO 9796 equipped '70 then right? Good. I am not sure I am following the remainder of your post... you seem to say that 9796 is not a real COPO like in 1969, well I hate to break it to you but the '70 car is a '70 and not a 69 427 car, so you are 100% correct.

Later you say that the future is bright for a 70 Z-28 value wise...What are you smoking?? Do you know- or do you have any idea just how hard it is currently to restore a '70 to a 100% correct quality restoration? Many, many correct reproduction parts are not on the market for 70, nor are good NOS or used parts, and lots of minor changes were made by '71. As a result the bad ones are under valued and the really good ones may be overvalued. The market for a '70 Z-28 is not even close to the steady value of the 69 Z-28 mainly due to the current aftermarket support in reproduction parts.

I am glad you were working at Dailey's then because there was a really smart salesman there that ordered at least three of the rarest 70 Camaros made... mine and at least two others.

PS.. You are not planning to try to buy for "ultra cheap" one of those super rare '70 COPO Camaros still in Erie - ala -like your recent Yenko Chevelle purchase you made from the unsuspecting seller are ya??? I am sure you told him of the SY -Chevelle's true value when you wrote the check right??


Phil

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

WOW, you havin' a bad day or what ??????
I guess I will respond since you end with a question.
Yes, it is MY OPINION only that the COPO/Spoiler is factual but a bit of a stretch.
I don't smoke but I do believe "the future is bright for '70 Z28s" again just MY OPINION.
Daileys Chevrolet sold more than 3 9796 cars ordered by a salesman/sales manager named Dave Tavernese who ordered most of the hi-po stuff. I talk to him still.
No, I am not trying to buy one of the 9796 Erie cars. I know both guys and might in the future if they try to sell but not chasing them, my plate is full right now.
And now to answer your insult relative to my sYc Chevelle purchase: I searched and found the car from a very old lead. I contacted the owner. He said YES, he would consider selling on our first visit. He took about 2-3 weeks to come up with a price. I PAID HIS PRICE. And it was not "ultra cheap". I have searched, found and purchased a lot of rare cars over the years, from early Corvettes under $1000 to an unknown 300SL Gullwing Mercedes 50 miles fom my home, and this transaction on the sYc Chevelle resulted in as satisfied a seller and buyer as any car I can think of.
Your insinuation is slightly tinted "green" and this might be a good time to say Thank You again to all the members who posted kind words about my lucky find and puchase when I first told my tale back in March.
George

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

hey guy's ,new member here! i'm the proud owner of many camaros,one of my newest additions is a feb. 71 copo z28 with 16,354 miles on it,& 85 % of the original paint.i also have lot's of documentation.drivetrain however was changed it was drag raced in the day's.i'm also one that considers these cars rare & did pay very dearly for it .i will post my story & pics under copo topic later when i get a chance.

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

As the proud owner of a '70 RS Z/28 (hugger orange/blk. stripes),NOM (replacement service block purchased in 1970)D-80 (April build),I would love to see it's value increase anywhere close to what I have invested in it...but I just don't see that happening anytime soon...at least no where close to '69 prices.I have owned this car since 1979 ($4500 purchase price)and am still waiting for early 2nd gen cars to catch up.

Will they ever?

John
1969 Z/28 (MIllenium Yellow/Blk stripes)
1970 RS Z/28 (Hugger Orange/Blk stripes)
1970 Chevelle SS-454 LS-6 (Cranberry Red/Blk stripes)
1970 El Camino SS-454 (Cranberry Red/Blk stripes)

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

George,

Thanks for the clairification, If you did the research and spoke to Vince Piggins in the past about this very issue you would clearly understand the greater significance of the production of these cars and just how they supported Chevrolet racing and the SCCA Trans Am Teams in 70.

You see Chevrolet could not meet the SCCA rules by making 1000 spoilers. They had to factory produce the car with this package to meet the SCCA rules. This was a very hard task given the short introduction of the 70 and the mid production request from the Chapparal team for the extra downforce needed to keep the cars on the track at high speed.

1000 cars were required by SCCA rules, and according to Piggins far, far, less were actually made - Chevrolet cheated and got away with it.

See if you have the time - attend any vintage Trans-AM racing event you will get respect for these cars fast by seeing them in person.

So in review I still find your "Stretch" comment offensive. So be it.

By the way yesterday was great and today I am also having a great day. You have one too. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Phil

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

Does anyone know what will show on a window sticker (if anything) on a bonafide '70 Z with a 3 pc spoiler? The one guy here in town, original owner but the rough car, claims to have his sticker. Good guy, I asked him to get it for me to post but maybe it isn't going to tell anything. I admit I don't know, never saw a WS from one of these except for the ones we just scraped off new cars and threw away. Original WS always intrigue me as so few people ever asked for us to remove them to save. How about this: I didn't even save my own from my '70 and I TOOK IT OUT, in pieces, soaking wet, into the trash it went. Never gave it a thought but saved all the other paperwork from ordering/buying the car.

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

George,

See if you can get a copy of it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Phil

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

As everyone is aware, "Copo" doesn't mean anything but central office production order.
If you ordered 100 plain 1970 station wagons with pink paint and a v6, you got "copo" cars.

The percieved value of any particular copo package varys with its desirability,components and usage.

I think what George meant was that the 9796 is not in the same catagory as a 9560 or 9561, owing to the scope, number and type of items in these packages(contents).

Is it a slam of a copo 9796 vehicle?
I think not, and while no one will dispute the rarity and collectablity of ANY of the copo packages, the 69 copo's are definately a different league of copo than a 70.

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know- or do you have any idea just how hard it is currently to restore a '70

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As someone who is trying to locate some pieces for my car I would have to agree 100% with this statement. Parts for these cars have sky-rocketed in the last few years. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

Citrus,

I Completely understand the differance between a 9560, a 9561 and a 9796. The common issue is the connection to Chevrolet's involvement in racing. This site is "Dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer
built Supercars and COPO cars". Zl-1's and L-72's were built with engine components to dominate drag racing. You get an edge in drag racing with brute horsepower. In high speed racing - the edge is gained through superior areodynamics,and with the new for 70 SCCA rules -cross-rams were banned and handling and areodynamics became the way to gain an edge to win. 1970 was the last year fo the old factory backed teams. and Chevy dumped quite a bit of money into winning a repeat season in '70 but it was not to be.

The few spoiler cars left are the legacy of this factory effort.

What George said is that it was a "stretch to call it a COPO".

This is not a factual statement as it clearly is a race developed COPO designed to help the factory backed teams dominate SCCA Trans-Am Racing.

I already touched on the 69 vs 70 issue in an earlier reply to George. Nuff said.

Phil

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

Restoring a '70 is far more costly than restoring a '67-'69 by a long shot.I did my '70 3-4 yrs. back and I couldn't get all the parts I needed.Just did my '69 this year and really...all it takes is $$$ to get it done.

Speaking of vintage Trans-Am cars,just saw them run at the Monterey Historics two weekends ago and it's always great to see 'em run.Jim Hall was there with all seven Chaparral's including the 2J "vacuum car" and of course,the #1 Chaparral Camaro won the T-A race.Also watched them run at the Wine Country Classics in Sonoma.

Go to www.historictransam.com to see the Big Boys run again!

Enjoy,

John

1969 X-77 (Millenium Yellow/Blk stripes)
1970 RS Z/28 (Hugger Orange/Blk stripes)
1970 Chevelle SS-454 (Cranberry Red/Blk stripes)
1970 El Camino SS-454 (Cranberry Red/Blk stripes)

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

I'd have to disagree with the statement that GM dumped a pile of money into the 1970 season.

Chevy was only in the T/A game a little bit more than half-heartedly at the best of times from what I've read, and GM's dominance was a mostly 1968-9 affair, and almost entirely due to the drivers and crew, and not from any factory offerings.

Factory backing from GM was poor in comparison to ALL the other manufacturer's, and by the end of 1969, after having given up its winning team, was all over but the crying.

Its too bad, because the 1970 Camaro would have been a much better car to work with than the first gens, and the Trans am series was perhaps the best showcase for high performance cars to be sold at the dealerships had the factories kept the heat on.

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

Citrus,

With Penske going to AMC in '70,Jim Hall was just spread too thin to campaign the T/A cars and his Can-Am cars which he was heavily involved with.He really didn't want anything to do with the Camaro's and that is really a shame.
Certainly,Roger & Mark has lots of input with the 2nd. gen cars and in the right hands,(Penske)would have surely been the 1970 champion...in my mind at least!

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

John,
That makes perfect sense to me.
I always thought if Roger and Mark had been kept by GM (which is what should have happened)It would have been a different story, not that Hall wasn't capable, but as you state his interests were not in T/Am.

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

To get back to the subject though, have we arrived at any concensus on the values?..are good restorations in the 30-40k range?.. also still waiting for my car to come back from bodyshop too..what is it with bodyshops and dragging their heels anyhow????

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

i own a collision repair shop and there is a shortage of good techs & the good ones are at a point that they don't want to work on the same car everyday for 6 months straight. as for z28 values i have a copper rust free # matching rsz28 that i purchased for 12,000 & i completely gutted the car for resto. i also have a 71 z28 with 16,354 miles 85 % original paint with an l88,dana 60,ansen slots & tall 3 piece(copo) spoiler.dealer invoice, pre-delivery sheet,pro-tecto plate,i gutted the interior but haven't found a build sheet 60,000.

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

I can't tell you how much I admire you guys that do the numbers matching down to the last detail. But it just isn't me. I would rather build a street car I can play with all I want https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif
http://www.zmanstoy.homestead.com/files/camF3.jpg

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

A buddy of mine just picked up a straight-bumper '70 Z that was originally Dark Green (code 48) with standard Black interior (711).It is pretty solid but has some rust bubbling through near the drip rails on the roof and in the usual places along the rocker panels but not too bad considering it's a CA car.It has been in a garage since the late '80's and shows 41k on the odometer.Somewhere along the way,someone retrofitted Pontiac T/A rear disc's on it.

Anyways,he goes to www.nada.com and comes away with this inflated $35K figure for a "average" condition car so...he thinks his is worth that!

I said...NO https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif...your car need s a TOTAL resto and I figure it in the $12-$15K range plus another $20K for the restoration...I know because I've BEEN there! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

I then ask him..."So then,what's my #'s-matching '70 Hugger Orange R/S Z worth that has been completely restored?" and he says $58K which is what NADA says an excellent example will bring.

Again...I said NO https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif because that figure just isn't realistic.That is '69 Z money and I just don't see prime '70 Z's bringing that kind of money....yet at least.

I don't know where NADA gets these figures but I think they are kinda high...what do you guys think?

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

...I mean those are good numbers to show your insurance company after a fender-bender but I don't think those are "real-world" figures...

Comments?

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

John, my .02 would be value depends on a lot things. For example:

"Completely restored" can mean a lot of things. Certianly a car restored to an anal level of originality is normally worth more than a car restored to a lesser level of detail. Both may be beautiful cars but to get the big bucs "correctness" seems vital.

How you market the car plays a big part in what it sells for. Is the description accurate? Are the pics detailed?

Another thing. It's been my experience that a "known" car sells faster and for more money. People like knowing that the "community" is in agreement that the car is legit and correct. I personally fall into this category. I feel more comfortable and will pay more for a car that others who are far more knowledgable than I sign off on, so to speak.

Paper documentation..Sort of relates to the above except the paper stuff could always be faked. The 2 together though make a winning combo.

And finally, the buyer! Some people buy these cars because they want THAT car. Believe it or not, their not looking to make money. They just want what they want. If a buyer like that shows up, you as the seller are going to be real happy.

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

Good solid advice Tom,thanks for your input. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

I just picked up a 70Z, Citrus Green with 49K miles, CW Turbo 400, no rust, no smog, one repaint, all original except for correct CE warranty replacement motor, almost perfect interior, non-rs, for $21,500. It is a geat starting point for a resto since most of the hard to find items are there.

I have even talked with the son of the first owner since 70 or 71 and he claimed the motor was overheating and the engine was dealer replaced sometine in the early 70's. That would match up with the blocks casting date of 1971 and one 492 service head dated 1972. The other head is a 186 casting, dated Jan 1970. It even has the original spare tire.

Apparently, the father bought the car in 70 or 71 for his son while he was in High School. It's a wonder he didn't wrap it around a telephone pole.

Getting ready to hunker down for Hurricane Rita. Best of luck to everybody.


Paul

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

Good luck with both !

Re: realistic price for 70 Z-28
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good luck with both !

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AMEN brother!