Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
CHRIS WHITE IS PROBABLY THE GUY WHO BUILT IT. I THINK THIS GUY DAVE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Don, are you accusing Chris of something ? Chris is who I send people to when they ask me about LS6 converts or parts and this is the first hint of anything negative I have ever heard about him.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

I hope you're joking, Don https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif...Chris White is a stand-up guy, IMO.

SS

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

No Charlie,I would never acuse him of any wrong doing. I have heard of him and know he is a real knowledgable person when it comes to chevelles. Someone told me that he does do cars for people now and then but I do not know anything about this car or mean to disrespect Chris. I just think this guy Dave knows him and think he's a little smarter than led to believe. Maybe he's just testing the waters here to see wht you guys know. Again I mean no disrespect. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Chris does do some cars and is doing at least two right now that I am aware of. One is his convertible that I am sure will be the best of the best when completed. I got to spend some time with Chris earlier this summer at Chad's and the guy is amazing. Pick a part and he will not only tell you the part number but likely the superceeded part and the dates the assembly line changed over to a different configuration. All off the top of his head. Quite the teacher to say the least but also and extrememly honest guy.
Rick

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Three seperate unrelated points here:

1) Nice car looks neat.

2) It's fraud when you represent a car as something it is not and have paper made up to substantiate your fraudulent misrepresentation. If there's evidence to establish the seller created the car or doctored the docs to make it an LS6 and then represented it as one when he sold it, he's in a world of trouble liability-wise in a civil suit for money damages.

3) Since the value is well above the minimum standard for wire fraud or mail fraud, if the car is fake he is also criminally prosecutable for a 5 or 10 year Federal prison sentence since he most likely used a telephone, the internet or the mail for some part of the transaction.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif class dismissed.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

A true "expert" of chevelles, and a genuine and honest guy. He has always been willing to share his knowledge to help me and many others as well. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

I rarely judge a person's character, but is anyone else starting to think Dave is the owner or a broker for this car? Just my personal observation. Please don't take this the wrong way.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

That's certainly the right mindset but the problem with burden of proof is just that.Ain't a court in the land that could convict the seller of that car based on evidence.You could hire Jerry for expert camaro testimony but last time I checked there wasn't anyone making a tidy sum flying across the country representing burned Chevelle buyers.The time is quickly approaching that there will be no way to de bunk a restored car one way or the other-once that happens it's not a stretch to see overall interest(let alone valuations)suffer as a result.Counterfitters have been getting free tuition through TC and this site,there most likely will never be a PHS equivalent for these cars,it's open season,and they're springin up like daisys.Some of the foremost authorities on these are members here-they already know not to disseminate build sheets and specific production info but it's incumbent on everyone for the good of the hobby($?)to PM sensitive info. Some may laugh at that notion but cleary the fox is in the coop(or coupe in our case)and he goin to do some damage.If I didn't own one of these I would not be on my soapbox but given the circumstances it's pretty fertile ground for the disingenuous.This thread was a fishing expedition,nothing more.
jmho

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Just a thought:

I have no doubt that the "crooks" are reading this and other sites gaining all the knowledge they can.

Sure, many have been caught. Some easier to spot than others. But how do we know for sure that some aren't spot-on? How many docs/tags/etc. are out there that would pass (or have passed) by even the most knowledgable "experts"? I guess that is only known by those that are producing the fake stuff.

There may be none out there that are exactly right, I dont know. But I sure wouldnt doubt it if some out there are and only a select few know about it.

Like I said, just a thought.

dave

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Some time back I looked at a unrestored, unmolested, LS6 Chevelle Convert that Chris had also looked at according to the owner. The car was so original it looked like a bolt had never been removed. As soon as I figure out how I will post some photos including the untouched engine stamp. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely judge a person's character, but is anyone else starting to think Dave is the owner or a broker for this car? Just my personal observation. Please don't take this the wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]

what was your first clue...? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smirk.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ain't a court in the land that could convict the seller of that car based on evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lynn Bilodeau ('Lynn' on this board) just might disagree with you on that https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

"Ain't a court in the land that could convict the seller of that car based on evidence"........It seems to me a fellow sold someone here a repro crossram hood as NOS and everyone was up in arms contacting the FBI etc,and the seller now is in jail. Yet on a 150K sale of a 40K malibu,its no big deal? Is the double standard due to the fact a non member bought the Ls6??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Who went to jail?

Jason

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

These are reasons why original cars should be worth way more (like Steves COPO camaro) than restored even if in half the shape, IMO. Scarry world, counterfitting is everywhere. They check money at the cash register don't they.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Just curious but who in their right mind would suggest that a Malibu convert with a LS6 drivetrain, which is what this car more than likely started out as, would be worth 150k..today, tomorrow or ever??? I think if you feel this way you are living in "dream land" and forgetting that this market, much like other recent markets, isn't the "norm" but a historical annomoly..If you don't feel the prices will recind once this market goes away, I suggest you go back and look at prices in the late 1980's..LS6 cars were selling for 90-100k then for restored cars...So if the market never reverts back and prices do not go backwards then why is it only now, some 3-4 years into this latest market that LS6 prices are at the same level?

Isn't this one of the biggest problems with Chevrolet musclecars in the first place...no way to truly document the cars except paperwork.If you accept that technology consistently allows the manufacture of things to improve, and the discrepancy between an original and a repro to get closer...isn't it only a matter of time before the paperwork "manufacured" today gets to the point where it can't be detected?? Look at it this way...15 years ago most people in this hobby could tell repro parts from NOS..whether they were emblems, door handles, carpet, etc..Now as a result of technology the repro parts aren't nearly as detectable..and in most cases if you put a repro part in an original box, they are indectable...Paperwork is sure to follow. Since of the "big 3" GM really didn't include engine or option info within the serial number of the cars...some exceptions noted as the serials are known...the greatest area for abuse is from a GM car.

Therefore in my opinion in another 10-15 years most buyers of these cars, will not be willing to pay more for "original" as at that point the possibilty of buying a real car will have greatly demenished. Unfortunatly these cars were mass produced and were not destined to be collectible in the 1st place...

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

That you John Wayne?

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious but who in their right mind would suggest that a Malibu convert with a LS6 drivetrain, which is what this car more than likely started out as, would be worth 150k..today, tomorrow or ever???

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not about it being a smart buy, it's about a buyer buying what he wants. This has been happening for the past couple of years. If a guy can't afford a $500K LS6 conv then he will buy a well done $150K clone. Look at the Yenko clones selling for 1/3 price of a real Yenko. No difference if it's a Yenko clone or an LS6 clone. If it's built well with dated correct parts then someone will buy it. And it's happening today!

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]

....Isn't this one of the biggest problems with Chevrolet musclecars in the first place...no way to truly document the cars except paperwork...... Since of the "big 3" GM really didn't include engine or option info within the serial number of the cars...some exceptions noted as the serials are known...the greatest area for abuse is from a GM car...

[/ QUOTE ]

This perspective could also be used to explain why the real & rare GM cars don't seem to bring as much money as the other mfgr's - to much inherent risk of being false.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

-----At what point in the future, once the paperwork gets perfected (if it does) and repro parts become closer to original (if they do) will the fakes actually become real???? Im sorry to bring this up but if its a perfect (and I do mean perfect) fake in all ways would the car become real at that point????........Bill S

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Because of the fact that many of the reproduction parts
are getting so good today, knowledgeable people started
to point to the documentation as the only way to "buy real".
Now, we have better fake documentation. Then it gets aged
better to look more real. Now we have sellers on eBay
trying to sell VIN plates, cowl tags, etc.. You can all see
exactly where this is going - can't you? If the suggestions
made here are correct ( so many good fake cars ), what will
happen to the real cars? Only those known for many, many
years to be real will survive with high prices. I fear for
all the other real Z/28's, L/78's, etc. that have not been
"known" by and large. Those cars will be cast in doubt for
a long time and this will have to affect their respective
values. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

The biggest problem with GM musclecars is these cars were never intended to be collectible. Noone foresaw that people would want to collect them and as such the steps needed to ensure future provence were not taken. Ford and Chrylser while not making cars for collectors at least had the good thought of including engine and other pertinent data in the cowl tags and VINS. This in my opinion (and a good many other non-brand specific collectors) will always ensure Ford and Chrysler cars bring more money..That and the fact that the true hi performance cars from each are truly rarer than the GM cars..GM had a far greater market share in the 1960's and 1970's than either and as such just plainly made more cars...

This is of course is dependant on people just plainly viewing the cars as rare or collectible in the first place..Interestingly some high quality "factory original" restoration shops are now moving away from "original" cars and more into Day 2 or "pro touring" as I would imagine the finite supply of real parts, the propensity for fraud with "real" parts..ie: restamps" and the sheer ridiculous money are making the consumers move away from "original" and into other areas. Thus in order to survive they move to other areas of restorations.

The idea that musclecars will always be worth the money seen today doesn't make sense to me...When the market corrects, as all collectors markets do..coins, guns, cars, art, etc..there are going to be a lot of people left holding the bag..

Im curious why do people feel the cars will continue to go up?? Can anyone here realistically see the day when a 1970 Malibu is worth 70k, when the cost of just living..gas, housing (which let's be honest more people would rather spend 70k in housing anyway..as often quoted.."Land..they don't make it any more"), raising kids, food, etc..continues to go up..Where are all the people with an extra 70k laying around going to come from??? This is assuming that future genrations even find the value in a 1970 car that really only did 1 or 2 things well and compared to current offering, maybe only has stlye going for it..Is there anyone on this board that collected Model A and T's and pre-war cars in the 1950 or 1960's...Keep in mind wasn't too long ago car collectors thought those prices would always go up as well...One could argue the musclecars have more flair and certainly more power, but once the guys that grew up with them die off..so does the vast majority of collecotr interest..the new generation buys the cars oftheir youth, which just so happen to have all the power and flair, but also are cheaper, better engineered and offer more ammenities..

Any thoughts??

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Last time I checked they don't make 60's cars anymore either. Sure, they may morph into something more than they were, but they are still a 60's car. When these cars were new, an entry level car was 2,500. Now an entry level new car is 25,000. I am not sure if classics will continue to go up but inflation will continue.

Jason

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

How many and what type of cars do you own. Trying to figure out why are you so concerned how the market will correct. Would I own as many cars as I do now if the market was weak, probably not. Would I enjoy them as much hell yes. Am I really concerned about the market, not especially because I enjoy the heck out of my cars. Can I predict the future heck no, I'll leave that to the speculators and know -it- alls. Lifes to short enjoy it before its too late....

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

"Where are all the people with an extra 70k laying around going to come from??? "

Millions of people need homes but you only need a few thousand financially solvent(and rabid) collectors to keep the valuations climbing.Everyone here knows the diff between a fugazi and diamond(including the starter of this thread),if not all they have to do is pm one of the sages to get a feel on the cars authenticity.You say in fifteen years noone will be interested in these as the boomers start denture fittment..I will be one of those geriatrics cruzing my rides till I drop and I'm pretty sure I ain't goin ta be alone.Pursuant to our other conversation BJ is (no matter how over the top) the true definitive valuation of muscle-call it a what you want but the it has become Mecca for anyone looking to get the max for their merchandise and the register rings every January with steadily increasing prices.Back on topic the point is it's clearly down to genuine people on this site and TC to make it as hard as possible on the greedy by NOT POSTING SHEETS,BROACH MARKS,STAMPINGS,and other pertinent info that will ultimately make our worst fears come true.These sites are the last line of defense,period.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Been watching too much Donnie Brasco latey..lol..I actually just sold all of my cars within the last year, as I personaly feel most of the cars, especially the original cars are way over priced and fraud, whether it is bogus paperwork or restamped parts is too rampant. I also do not think the price trend will contine and I wanted to re-allocate the money to more stable investments. The topic is interesting to me and I thought in light of some of the post concerning the value of a clone or what used to be called a hot rod...a car that is nothing like it started interesting..

Something I'm not sure if many have thought about is the correlation between short term rates, real estate, and the current boom. It is certainly interesting how prior to the drastic historic annomaly in short term rate drop of 2001-2005, the musclecar market was soft...When realestate and musclecars took off is when the govt regualted a recession with short term rates (ie: the Fed Fund rate). Now that rates are up, realestate is self correcting to a normal market...some might say soft or certainly slow in most areas, what will happen with musclecars.

While prices among hardcore collectors might stay up,I'm really not sure how many "hardcore" collectors there are. I would bet there aren't as many as most will think. As most economist will tell you, the main reason the economy isn't in better shape, which isn't to say it is in bad shape now, is directly related to the war. Once the consumer confidence truly returns and stocks make rallys and are generating decent returns, how many guys will bail on musclecars for more traditional investments. Given that there are more musclecars "known" about today and the acessiblity is greater as a result of the internet today vs. the first "boom" I would suggest that once the cars reach a certain plateau they will drop in value. Look at it this way..there are only a certain amount of people able or inclined to pay 100k (or even 50k)for a car that gets driven only in nice weather. Once these people buy the cars and own what they want the remainder (the cars that is) have no where to go, so the result is the prices drop as demand decreases. Right now musclecars are hot, but at one point so were Beannie Babies..it still boils down to price drives demand..the higher the price the lower the demand hence the price eventually corrects to what the market will bear and when looking at a commodity the price usually drops quickly and below where most expect...We aren't talking about cars that as a general rule only 1000 were made...So if we are saying that a LS6 of which there were 4475 made and even 20% survive (much higher I would bet) we are discussing almost 900 cars. So if the current price is 100k then for that to remain there has to be a majority that will and more importantly CAN pay that much. That is 447 people...are there really that many people out there??? Not sure...

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

I guess one of the fundamental problems I have with your interest in keeping certain info inaccessible is doesn't the lack of sharing promote fraud that is undetectable or goes undetected? If it weren't for the sharing of info wouldn't so much of the history of these cars be lost. Not for nothing but wasn't there a "well known" car that was shown to be not what it was represted as a result of sharing of thoughts and info. What happens if only the financially solvent get the info? How and who should get to enjoy these cars history...just the few that have the funds to buy them? Is it the guys fault that enjoys reading about LS6's, Yenkos and the such but can't afford them that GM didn't preserve a historical record to weed out fakes. I guess one of the most basic problems I see is the catch 22 or double standard that a lot of guys with high dollar GM cars have..that is they want the prices and subsquent cash windfall in their favor, but they aren't willing to accept the assocaited risk..that the cloners, fakers, etc will eventually make their original cars and "re-creations" undistinguishable..I guess the point is if you want a "safe" muclecar investment with respect to clones go buy something where the VIN is guaranteed to be the real deal..ZL1, Hemi, etc..not "mass muscle" like Z28's, LS6's, etc..

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

I think you are over analyzing the market. There is no better place to put your money right now since real estate has leveled out(it has not dropped like many predicted). The stock market, forget about that. So collectibles is really the only place to make any money. But this situation isn't about collectibles. It's about somebody that has always wanted a car like an LS6 convertible. A real one costs $450K so he can't afford it. A well done clone that 99% of the people can't tell the difference he will buy for $150K. It has nothing to do with the real value of the clone, it has to do with what he really wants. 9/11 changed everything and people are going about their lives differently. I don't think the car market is going to adjust like it did in the late 80's early 90's because of 9/11. There are too many people willing to spend their money for enjoyment. And musclecars = https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

While I certainly don't believe the fake LS6 ragtop in question was described accurately, and feel it was without question blatently misrepresented, I definitely can't say I feel that everyone with a restored musclecar or supercar should hurry up and sell them off before they are all worth pennies on the dollar... if you believe that, i think you're in a bigger dream world than the guy who thought he bought a real, documented LS6 ragtop for 150k. (if such a transaction even happened) Just as diamonds will always be able to be distinguished from cubic zirconia, bogus cars will always be able to be distugished from real ones. Maybe not by everyone, but the true enthusiasts will know how to tell the difference and will be able to spot a fake. That's pretty much how it is already, with diamonds and cars alike. All the focus on this car was how good the build sheet looked, (which was quickly discovered as fake, with tons of errors i might add) but I bet if you took the fake paperwork out of the equation all together and just looked at the car itself, you'd find just as many inaccuracies and clues that it was a "put-together" car. Just like when the repro 69 Camaro bodies came out and everyone was immediately worried that it would bring forward a host of phony cars...has anyone actually SEEN one of these bodies? There are more differences from an original than you can count. You'll have your hands full just trying to get the fenders and doors to fit right let alone trying to turn one into an undetectable bogus supercar...

If these cars are such overpriced wastes of money and frauds ("especially original cars") and destined to be worth nothing, why are you here on this site? As someone who already sold their car(s), i would expect you to profess how they all will soon be worth nothing...as someone obviously in it for the investment rather than the love of the cars, it would be hard to admit an error if you sold your cars while they were still climbing in value. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

If you don't mind me asking, what car(s) did you recently sell?


I'm not a part of this "baby boomer" demographic that you claim are the only folks keeping this hobby alive, and am actually a "gen X'er" that is supposedly not going to have any interest in these cars. I'm anxiously awaiting this day you speak of, when I can buy chevy musclecars and supercars for pennies on the dollar. I also know many others my age (or younger)that would also be interested in buying some cheap supercars when they become available for next to nothing... Let me know when it happens... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Anyone that wants to dump their SuperCar[s] before the sky falls...please PM me for a quick/easy deal.

SS

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Considering this thread started with Dave Castine request - and his comfort at 80% the car is real . . . Dave where are you with all this new info and your friend??

What do you think your friend is planning to do??

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

MuscleCar prices rise & fall and rise & fall,just like everything else does in society today.Nothing is immune from this.
If this upsets & disturbs anyone today,then they are in this hobby for the wrong reasons and were in over their heads from the very beginning.
I see only the Carpetbagging chicken littles with no experience,as the first to declare the "Sky is Falling" & jump ship..and I say good ridence to you all. http://www.wdisneyw.com/forums/images/smilies/hello.gif
Speaking soley for myself,if car prices do escalate,I will still own my Super Sport Chevelle.
If car prices do fall,I will still own my Super Sport Chevelle...plus I will buy as many as my 401K allows.
I do believe that if Musclecar prices do fall drastically one day,it'll be the Clones that will take the largest,most dramatic decrease in value first overall the other vehicles on the block at that very time.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

I think you are really over stating and exagerating my point..I don't think I ever mentioned they'd be worth pennies on the dollar..simply that there isn't really any evidence to suggest that they will continue to rise in value and "the sky's the limit" mentality when it comes to value isn't really valid...It would defy historic data as well as economics...

Just curious but if you are assuming that there will be no reduction in value where do you see a 1969 Z28 in 5 years? a LS6? a COPO? If you are expecting these cars to continually rise in value at the same proportions they have over the last few years isn't it safe to say that even among "hardcore" collectors there becomes a point when the price exceeds either their ability to buy or their desire to pay? Please keep in mind you aren't talking about objects where there is a very finite number made..art (1 or 2 pieces that are alike) or exotics...You are talking about mass produced items that are truly appreciated when it comes to value by a minority. If you want to see this...go take a COPO, LS6, Hemi or any musclecar to a public arena and ask how mnay people would honestly pay your asking price for it. The majority will not pay what this market is bearing at the moment among colectors, simply because they do not see the perceived value. Musclecars simply aren't viewed as a commodity or truly collectible by folks outside of the hobby like a Ferrai or Renoir or land. Therefore they are much more volatile with respect to price and the market and once the market becomes saturated with product at a given price the prices drop because there aren't enough people that will pay the price. This type of thinking isn't being negative...just basic economics which I would suggest if you are paying these current prices for musclecars then you should have studied.

I agree after 9/11 people's perception changed and a more "get it while you can" mentality has taken over...but we are still discussing cars which are still viewed by the majority as mere tools to move about. Sure everyone wants to look stylish but one only has to look at the current new car situation and you quickly realize most want practical verse flash. If they didn't people would still be buying SUV's and trucks at the same rate as 2-3 years ago...

Just for the record in the last couple of years I've sold a few very hi-po cars...'vettes, a 'cuda, a couple of LS6's, etc..I sold them because I didn't enjoy them any longer and my interest have moved more to "Day 2" cars and just basic fun musclecars without regard to originality..which can encompass anything from matching numbered cars to the clones. I'm actually thinking about building a pro touring car (camaro or cuda)as for me and my enjoyment they represent the best of both worlds. I have been messing with these cars since the first "boom" and honestly think if you move away from very niche sites like this to more "masses" sites..Team Camaro, Chevelle, Moparts, etc..you will find the majority of musclecar enthuiast don't feel the current prices are both good for the hobby or will keep going up.

just my thoughts

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]


Just curious but if you are assuming that there will be no reduction in value where do you see a 1969 Z28 in 5 years? a LS6? a COPO?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you asked, I believe that original examples of every one of the above mentioned cars will be worth more in 5 years than they are right now.

Unlike yourself, I'm not a value speculator or "investor", nor do I use the word "economics" when talking about the cars i love, but I do know this... I have been into these cars all my life, and since i was a little kid I have been going to auctions, car shows, swap meets, etc. I have never seen the cars I liked cost LESS one year than they did the previous year. EVER.

While I'm not any type of expert on LS6 prices or values, I have followed the prices of Yenko cars fairly closely simply because I have been trying to buy one for years...as the years passed, I watched Yenko Deuces go from 20k to 30k to 40k to 50k to 100k all the way to 175k. At the time I bought mine it was one of the highest prices ever paid for one. There were some folks in the shadows similar to yourself saying it was "too much money", "the bottom was going to fall out", "its overpriced" etc. That was less 5 years ago. I think those folks were proven wrong at least 3 times over. In fact, every one of 'em sold since has sold for more money than the one before it. What will it be worth in another 5 years? I don't know, but to be honest I hope you're right and its worth less than what I paid for it, because "economics" has nothing to do with my love or interest in these cars, and I'd like to get another one. (or 2 or 3!) To me it doesnt matter if they "continue to rise in value at the same proportions they have over the last few years", which I agree they will likely not do, (since they have indeed tripled in value in 5 years or less) But at the same time, I'm not saying i feel that their value is going to fall. Restoration and parts costs will keep rising, as will the prices of the cars themselves... from the bottom level project 6 cylinder cars all the way to the top level restored supercars. It seems to me that over the years, (as far back as I can personally remember) I've heard alot more people saying "Man, i wish I still had that car I sold" more than I've heard them saying they are glad they sold when they did. Just about everyone who ever sold a car believes in their minds that they sold at "the right time", yet the car ends up being worth even more as time passes. Believe it or not, I actually hate talking about values and prices, as thats not why I'm into this stuff... but this thread just sorta got me thinking about it a little.

As with the speculators and naysayers of the previous 5 years who were proven wrong when they said these cars were "overpriced" in 2001, we'll just have to wait and see who's doomsday reports of today prove to be fact or fiction in 5 more... Talk to ya in 2011.



So you really sold original Corvettes and LS6's to buy and build clones/day 2 cars?

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
MuscleCar prices rise & fall and rise & fall,just like everything else does in society today.Nothing is immune from this.
If this upsets & disturbs anyone today,then they are in this hobby for the wrong reasons and were in over their heads from the very beginning.
I see only the Carpetbagging chicken littles with no experience,as the first to declare the "Sky is Falling" & jump ship..and I say good ridence to you all. http://www.wdisneyw.com/forums/images/smilies/hello.gif
Speaking soley for myself,if car prices do escalate,I will still own my Super Sport Chevelle.
If car prices do fall,I will still own my Super Sport Chevelle...plus I will buy as many as my 401K allows.
I do believe that if Musclecar prices do fall drastically one day,it'll be the Clones that will take the largest,most dramatic decrease in value first overall the other vehicles on the block at that very time.

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I think you are correct that the clones will drop value faster and perhaps more drastically..but then we get back to the problem with GM musclecars...documentation. I feel if you are collecting GM musclecars you run the very real possibilty that the documentation being faked will not be able to be detected and as a result the prices on ALL GM cars will suffer.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

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Just curious but if you are assuming that there will be no reduction in value where do you see a 1969 Z28 in 5 years? a LS6? a COPO?

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Since you asked, I believe that original examples of every one of the above mentioned cars will be worth more in 5 years than they are right now.

Unlike yourself, I'm not a value speculator or "investor", nor do I use the word "economics" when talking about the cars i love, but I do know this... I have been into these cars all my life, and since i was a little kid I have been going to auctions, car shows, swap meets, etc. I have never seen the cars I liked cost LESS one year than they did the previous year. EVER.

While I'm not any type of expert on LS6 prices or values, I have followed the prices of Yenko cars fairly closely simply because I have been trying to buy one for years...as the years passed, I watched Yenko Deuces go from 20k to 30k to 40k to 50k to 100k all the way to 175k. At the time I bought mine at 50k it was one of the highest prices ever paid for one. There were some folks in the shadows similar to yourself saying it was "too much money", "the bottom was going to fall out", "its overpriced" etc. That was less 5 years ago. I think those folks were proven wrong at least 3 times over. In fact, every one of 'em sold since has sold for more money than the one before it. What will it be worth in another 5 years? I don't know, but to be honest I hope you're right and its worth less than what I paid for it, because "economics" has nothing to do with my love or interest in these cars, and I'd like to get another one. (or 2 or 3!) To me it doesnt matter if they "continue to rise in value at the same proportions they have over the last few years", which I agree they will likely not do, since they have tripled in value in 5 years or less but at the same time, I'm not saying their value is going to fall. As with the speculators and naysayers of the previous 5 years who were proven wrong when they said these cars were "overpriced" in 2001, we'll just have to wait and see who's doomsday reports of today prove to be fact or fiction in 5 more... Talk to ya in 2011.



So you really sold original Corvettes and LS6's to buy and build clones/day 2 cars?

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"No..." I didn't sell original cars to buy or build clones...sold them to buy a business and realestate which in turn made me way more money then musclecars..

I'm not a specualtor or investor in these cars either..have had them in some capacity for over 20 years. I actually really enjoy original cars, but with the current situation with fraud and restamped parts I just don't feel comfortable buying original cars, especially GM cars. I watch websites like this and read post and see that the potential for deception doesn't seem to be limited to low end cars being turned into high end cars...I know it has even gone so far as historic cars being faked and that bothers me. If guys are faking cars and turning unknown cars into historic cars, with known historic provence then what are the chances someone will fake a basic SS396??? So for now if I want to drive a 1969 Camaro I'd rather have something where noone cares about documentation, matching numbers, etc..Something that is just enjoyed for what it was/is..a cool old car that sounds great and performs great and gets "thumbs up" without all the other hassles.

Just for the record about cars being worth less..I can remember looking at a 1969 RS/JL8 cross ram car Ed Uylate (sp?) had in 1994 or 1995..it was a LA car loaded to the gills with options, a 10 10 car, etc..He wanted 19-20k for it at the time, but it didn't have paperwork...the sum of the parts was worth the money, but why part it out if it was real...If he had listed that car in 1989 would it have been listed for 19k or 65k? That is just one example.

It seems like you are only looking at the "good" data....the data from the boom...check out the prices from 1989 and then 1994 or so..what was the percentage of drop..not the actual money, but the percentage...inflation in general has to be taken into account. It also looks like you are into the car even in a "bad" market for "ok" money so you will be ok more than likely..However what about the guys buying them for 100-150k?? Who knows...

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

Sounds like you've been into this stuff for awhile too...I see you just recently signed up here... did you just discover the site? Where are you from?

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

I've been around the block...lol I am not a huge internet guy...when online (I use computers daily for work so when off try to stay away from them..lol) normally stay on other sites...have way too many interest...cars are just one of them.

Re: I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible
 

What state are you in?