Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Well we'll just have to wait and see.

Here comes the coupe version. The prototype is at the SEMA show now. Supposed to retail somewhere between 10 and 13K.
http://www.littooy.com/hans/archives...2005%20016.jpg

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

All legal arguing aside, that is still totally amazing! I wonder if they are going to dip them in an E-coating instead of merely spray primering them?

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Now that I can see the actual dash panel having the DOT GM VIN locations present, this disturbes me even more! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Seems to me ever more each day that all of us who have the original cars still left to get onto an authorized responsible Registry!
We should get this done before all of the low lifers with bad intentions, aka that Canadian joker Charley outed, get that bird flu thats going around and try to fake some orignal cars, before it's tooooo late! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Carrol Shelby ran into some problems with the so called few remaining AC bodies he had left over(??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif ) not too long ago...whatever occured with him attempting to title and register those bodies as actual original cars?

Do we anywhere on this board have an Attorney and a Law Enforcement employee with sufficient credibility who could offer up some real time answers on these reproduction bodies?
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do we anywhere on this board have an Attorney and a Law Enforcement employee with sufficient credibility who could offer up some real time answers on these reproduction bodies?
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back a page and re-read. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's face it, the only parts of a car that I.D. it as "that car" are the areas where the VIN itself is stamped. Cut those out and weld them into the corresponding areas on a better body and, bodaboom-bodabing, instant rust-free survivor. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you,but you haven't technically removed the VIN, since it's still connected to the "car". What's your definition of "car" or "automobile"? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your described procedure would absolutely be a felony under federal law. Not even a maybe. Eventually someone would find out, and if the info got to an interested law enforcement type, you would lose the car, it would be confiscated and if you were the person who did the switching you would be prosecuted as well. I am telling you this from a "legal beagle" standpoint, having worked on some of these types of cases. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ] First, I want to make it clear that I wouldn't do this, I have a real Z28 and this practice could hurt me like anyone else. I don't doubt you njsteve, I'm confident you know the law,(Lord knows the average lay-person can't understand it...a topic for another day!), but your response begs the question....how much of a car does the law consider "a car"?

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

There will be big differences ..it's gotta say Made in Taiwan somewhere https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Yes BelAir!
And...where in fact will it say that ON the body in face value!

Y1's intent was innocent I am sure at first, but we can all see the writing on the wall with this shell....Threw this idea at a family member older than I and she suggested that it was only time before a fraud car evolves!
This has got to be stopped or better yet, more ID stamping present to prevent fake cars! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

I agree with belair, there has to be some differences, although it probably won't prevent fraud. i would imagine it would cost someone more to try and make it LOOK original than what it will be worth. those they don't know any better will be the ones to get taken. imo

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do we anywhere on this board have an Attorney and a Law Enforcement employee with sufficient credibility who could offer up some real time answers on these reproduction bodies?
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back a page and re-read. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Steve,

Very neat topic indeed! Question for you: I just got an out of state vehicle inspected by a certified state inspector who was directly employed by the state DMV. The inspection was little more than a glance at the vin number and the title. Nothing else was checked.

Now lets assume that the "body gestapo" inspectors are being trained someplace out there right now.....

That would tell me that there is some standardized process of inspection that is a result of or has been derived from state or federal law someplace Right?

Why don't you locate just one of these this statutes, and a corresponding legal opinion that have been upheld in one court case on this very topic.

I just want to be real sure that we are not mixing opinion in this thread from statutes designed to preclude auto chop shops (stolen cars) from VIN# switching.

VIN# switching- where the body and its parts are stolen and a new VIN# is assigned with the intent to cover the theft.

The application of this lawmaking would be designed to convict auto theft chop shop operators.

So I am left to ponder the applicability of such a law to a ligitimate auto restoration processes or custom car builder applications where ownership of the vehicle/Title/parts is not at all in question.

Heck Just post a link to one case. Educate us!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif


Phil

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Unfortunately this situation falls into that fraud statute. This is one of those areas where technology has advanced farther than the law. The drafters of the laws never imagined that someone would recreate an exact copy of a long extinct car and sell it on the open market for repair purposes. It is quite literally "Jurassic Park meets Perry Mason." (Quick, someone with PhotoShop create me an image of this)

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's face it, the only parts of a car that I.D. it as "that car" are the areas where the VIN itself is stamped. Cut those out and weld them into the corresponding areas on a better body and, bodaboom-bodabing, instant rust-free survivor. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you,but you haven't technically removed the VIN, since it's still connected to the "car". What's your definition of "car" or "automobile"? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your described procedure would absolutely be a felony under federal law. Not even a maybe. Eventually someone would find out, and if the info got to an interested law enforcement type, you would lose the car, it would be confiscated and if you were the person who did the switching you would be prosecuted as well. I am telling you this from a "legal beagle" standpoint, having worked on some of these types of cases. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Right -- I see your point, but since you are the subject matter expert on this topic, I was hoping you could point us to some supporting case law, a law, statute, regulation, (federal or State) or even guidance to help us wade through this complex issue.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Phil

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Guys I assume the folks who commissioned these bodys did their homework and they are legal to make and sell....in the hands of hobbyists (?) is where any fraud would take place...documenting areas of differences will be the most important thing...they are here so it's not going to stop..it's going to be like trim tags from here on out...if people know the differences in the structure they will try and make those more correct too.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Did'nt Boyd Coddington just get spanked for vin tampering with a bunch of some other guys? Something about vinning some new customs with old vins to get around the insurance and government regulations. That guy gets oilerier the more i read about him!!

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

--------I dont think it was insurance and govt regs as much as simply no one wanting to pay sales tax on the true price of a bunch of very expensive custom built cars..........Bill S

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Thanks nysteve for setting that straight. I almost got caught up in a problem like that and I was trying to warn these guys that they could be setting themselfs up for big problems if they change a factory vin # on to something like this.

The feds are just not too easy to get along with when they think you have done something wrong.


Pantera

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

No problem! I'd rather give everyone some free, accurate legal advice now, and prevent some BIG heartaches (and legal bills) later.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

But the makers of this body are still insisting that the entire body itself is just a "replacment panel" to repair rust damage.As I have stated before.Some repaired original cars end up with not much more then about 20 pounds of original metal clippings holding together 1000 pounds of replacment panels.When you are talking about repaired originals that needed every part expet the windshield frame replaced,how is it still an original car anyway.They repop the upper firewall panels,the frame rais and everything else.Even if you fixed an original,there is a good chance it wouldnt have any hidden VIN's when you were done.

As for rebodies,they are legal with 32 fords.A friend of mine bought a full real steel car with a rusty body and a good frame.He put a glass body on it and registered it with the VIN numebrs off the frame.That is totally legal and the DMV had no issue with it.Boyd was using VIN's on cars that didnt have even have a scrap of metal with the original VIN on them.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

The body panels are E-coated. However, before they can be spot-welded together the E-coat must be removed to assure complete metal contact on both ends of the spot welder to make a perfect weld. Upon completion the car will then be primed or sent as is if so requested by end user.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

What differences do you expect to see between a Fisher body and a Dyna-corn Camaro body? A camaro was shipped to Taiwan, dis-assembled and then reversed engineered and the body panels were duplicated.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
What differences do you expect to see between a Fisher body and a Dyna-corn Camaro body? A camaro was shipped to Taiwan, dis-assembled and then reversed engineered and the body panels were duplicated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably more differences than you can even count... Are there ANY Taiwan Camaro reproduction parts (even small ones) that a trained/experienced eye can't distiguish from real GM? If there are, its a short list. I highly doubt there will be much trouble identifying a complete Taiwan body of over 800 of these repro pieces welded together.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Such as? Give an example. I have had original GM body parts that have not fit well at all. There is going to be a difference in parts when the tooling is new and after it has stamped out 20000 parts, whether the tooling belongs to GM or Taiwan. There are alot of American companies working with Taiwan to improve the quality of the parts and the accurancy of the fit. There Foundries are alot more sopisticated than given credit for. Not to mentioned the biggest company is also behind this project because they have licensed the body......GM

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

1/4 panels, fenders, trunk lids, cowl induction hoods, weatherstrip, rocker moldings, bumpers, door handles, window cranks, dash carriers, seat trim, etc...(i'm sure many folks can add to this list) Every one of these items have visual and structural (and ofter fitment) differences between repro and original GM parts. I agree original GM stuff isnt always perfect, nor are over the counter pieces from GM always identical to factory installed stuff. Just saying its not gonna be hard to ID a repro body from a GM one.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

As far as sheet-metal, there are American companies working with Taiwan to improve the fit and quaility of parts mentioned. Weatherstrip are also being improved and is offered in a latex that is better fitting. We just test fitted 68 Camaro full Q-panels and the fit has improved 100%. Some of the parts mentioned do have certain problems that are being corrected by increasing QC with American companies that are in the industry test fitting parts and assisting in visual correctness also. I just think with original parts slowing running out and if you do find some the price is usually unaffordable. We need to welcome the parts but let Taiwan know we want better QC and hopefully American companies will continue to help.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

I agree, the Chinese are getting better every day and who knows, may surpass us in the near future if we rest on our laurels.

Paul

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

I've used a few of these parts and the biggest complaint I had is that they are thinner than GM. The door panels need reinforcment behind the handles or you'll push the handles in to much when closing the door which could cause your paint to crack. Over at www.Camaros.net there are tons of complaints of fitment for quarters, doors, hoods etc...

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just think with original parts slowing running out and if you do find some the price is usually unaffordable.

[/ QUOTE ] Thats for sure....wasn't there an American company that could accomplish this ? Probably not...or was it a financial decision ?

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Heartbeat City has some very nice sheetmetal. American Made!! I give Jim credit for that.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

When any sheetmetal does not fit well it is immediately thought the part is faulty. When in fact alot of the problems are with the car itself. Sometimes the quarter panel you are trying to install is not the problem its the parts you are trying to install it to. The Camaro is over 30 years old and have been raced, wrecked, weathered and who knows what else. The other problem I see is that any installer with a 110 welder thinks there a bodyman. Look, Im not saying the parts are perfect, But a good restoration shop (not a paint/body shop) can insure a proper fit and correct for any appearance failures. Again, with proper guidance from American companies and better QC you will see these parts continue to improve.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

I'll take my hat off to anyone putting one of these puzzels together...Your gonna need a straight jacket or the patience of a saint to see a repop Camaro to completion.

I shoot fire from my eye's after 5 min with a set of interior piller posts or whatever POS repop part....Not for me....Never

The market is out there. They will sell as many as they make,just not to a group of purists.......

Could make a nice winter beater though...... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif



Steve https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

The first one hits ebay!
http://cgi.ebay.com/CREATIVE-MASTERS-196...1QQcmdZViewItem
Those Taiwan gaps are nasty https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif!

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
1/4 panels, fenders, trunk lids, cowl induction hoods, weatherstrip, rocker moldings, bumpers, door handles, window cranks, dash carriers, seat trim, etc...(i'm sure many folks can add to this list) Every one of these items have visual and structural (and ofter fitment) differences between repro and original GM parts. I agree original GM stuff isnt always perfect, nor are over the counter pieces from GM always identical to factory installed stuff. Just saying its not gonna be hard to ID a repro body from a GM one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe,

Will be real easy. Repop bodies will not have the Fisher Body date stampings. Once you know where to look it is easy to spot a repop.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Steve, The salt and snow will probably rot them into the ground, like most of the offshore repops that we deal with here at the shop.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Maybe. my case in point is I replaced a door skin with a chinese pos on my 69. stock fenders and rear quarters. The door gap on the top part up past the midpoint crease you could almost stick your little finger in, and all other gaps were good. I had to weld this up with a bead which is not good. I could put a GM door in the hole and it fit perfect. Do you have a vested interest in offshore panels?

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Steve, The salt and snow will probably rot them into the ground, like most of the offshore repops that we deal with here at the shop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok,Ok ....no winter beater for me then.........LOL


Steve https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

No. I do not have a vested interest in off shore panels. However I do have a interest in this project. Like in any business there are certain companies that are trying to capitalize on the Muscle Car craze and build body parts and throw them in the market at a fast pace without doing much research or with little or no QC. There only goal is financial gain. Those companies are being singled out for there less than perfect part and eventually will be forced to build a better product or quit! Now, I own some original low mileage Camaro's that are fully documented with horrible panel spacing thru out the car. So, specifically on your Camaro maybe the door wasnt install correctly or maybe you purchased a door from a company as previously mentioned. And maybe you got real lucky when you put a GM door on and fit perfect.....but the bottom line Gentleman is that we are talking about a car that was massed produced in 1969 by GM and sorry to say the fit and finish was less than perfect.

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

Most of the steel bought for these body panels are purchased from Japan. Guess what...the same place most US companies purchase their steel. So I am curious, how is it that the reproduction parts made in Taiwan are going to rot faster than than the US parts?

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Like in any business there are certain companies that are trying to capitalize on the Muscle Car craze and build body parts and throw them in the market at a fast pace without doing much research or with little or no QC. There only goal is financial gain

[/ QUOTE ]


So what's the next project on the drawing board for this company ? ?

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

I make my living doing Quality Control......Almost all manufacturing I see is done the same way,hurry up and get it done.We(the mfg)don't have time to make it right to begin with.BUT, we sure do have the time to make it again and again and again.What an assbackwards concept.It takes just as much time and money to make it right from the start. You hit the nail on the head talking about QC....There is NONE.The QC is all done outside the plant by you an me struggling to assemble substandard parts and later complaining to the mfg.....I've been fighting the quanity over quality concept for years.It falls on deaf ears....the customer needs it NOW.Same thing with the repop market,they sell it and you need it.....Welcome to todays MFG... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif


Steve....QC/INSP. NA MFG https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the steel bought for these body panels are purchased from Japan. Guess what...the same place most US companies purchase their steel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of our structural steel is bought from Canada (sad[no offense intended https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif],but it's not Japan)......sheet metal and alloys are always local..... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Steve https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 69 Camaro Body in the Crate
 

No offense taken. Its obvious I misread my research and appreciate the correction. I certainly don't want to mis-lead anybody with faulty data. Whether imported from Canada, Mexico, or Japan I simply was trying say that I don't believe that imported metal rots faster than domestic metal....however it is apparent that you may have better knowledge about that also.