Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

If they go with the 2nd Gen style Motion stripe I think the L88 stlye hood will look good. I agree it should have some type of side pipe. The Motion Mustang has a side pipe made using a U type muffler where the inlet and exit is in the front then turns out to the side of the car. Joel then used a glass panel to simulate a side pipe cover.
A C2 Corvette side pipe may be difficult to use with factory CATS.

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

I miss chrome on the newer cars--I know maybe the styles today call for the color-keyed bumpers , mirrors etc. , and I agree.But I think the car would really step back in time, and at the same time compliment the modern design, with the 67 vette side pipes/slotted stainless heat shield.
I was always partial to the stingray hood,butI guess they will have to see which hood works better with the slant of the hood.If they use an open stingray hood, the driver should be able to close the opening--vacuum or cable control.---- -I needed that--for 2 minutes I actually felt like I was filling out a order-form -O.K. BACK TO REALITY--HOODS--SIDEPIPES ,LIKE THEM ALOT. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Matt:
Will there be track testing at the Atlanta Dragway? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img] You might just meet a cobra mustang and um, well you know, show them what the bowtie brand is all about! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img] They talk a lot of junk to us LS-1 boys so make us proud and run low 11s and get a picture of their reaction. You know the one I am talking about. Here it comes. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img](all at one time!)

Andy Anderson
67 Camaro SS 350
99 Camaro Z/28

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

The small block with BIG ASS HP is the only option !!
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

OK guys, put the pipe dream down about the wild wing and side pipes. Joel did them in the 60's and 70's because he thought of it. Today, that wild wing on a Camaro looks horrible and my little white car was made fun of by everyone and that alone was more than enough to ensure to others that it wont work. Besides, that car was bought that way and that spoiler is on its way to CA. I bet Charlie can sell it for me out there . . . quick. Just Kidding. It was never an idea for this Motion car, as I like the factory stuff and That Is What Is Collectible, not junk aftermarket stuff. Besides, that white hardtop car is a donor car for another project that has something to do with the dealership I bought it from, Sutliff Chevrolet ???

These cars are going to be unique and nothing some 17 year old kid is going to be able to redo to his V-6 camaro. We have an image here, like the ZL1 to take care of, and I will not entertain an aftermarket piece that has been overdone. Like the ZL1 Supercar package, it is a 2002 version, and this Motion car will be the same. It will be first class and very difficult to imitate.

No 454 Big Block engines here, we are in the year 2003 and we are going to use the same engine that the C5R Corvettes ran last weekend in Le Mans. This motor is the modern day ZL1 motor and it has the racing history that the original ZL1 motors had in Can Am and the late 60's and early 70's Corvettes, as well as Drag Racing. I don't think you will find any street driven 60's or 70's big block 454 or 427 that can handle 12:1 compression and make over 500hp to the rear wheels like this new modern day big block is making and still get 22 to 24 mpg, with AC.

This 427 C5R Race Case is no small block, except maybe for the fact that it will fit in our Camaro, but 600 plus HP, and the streetability of a vintage big block, why go back to an old big block that wont fit, and if you think it did in Jon Moss's late model ZL1 Prostreet Camaro, then look again at the cutting they had to do. I don't mean to be getting on your ideas, but we went through this 25 times or more with the ZL1 owners, just ask Bill Porterfield and anyone else here about their original thoughts and ask them what they think of the new 427 motor now that they have one. Modern technology has come a long way and if you want to see a 9 second Motion car, well, stick around, because one of these 20 cars will be running in the 9's.

This is going to be a fun project and your input is valuable and I will listen to any ideas, so please don't stop with the pipe dreams, but go easy on the rear spoiler and side pipes, Charlie is getting nervous. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

i love the 9 sec. remark, i better take some driving lessons from charlie or perhaps matt, gone in less than 4 seconds. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Take lessons from me and I will have you in the 12's with that 9 second car. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the engines here. The way I see it, there is no modern big block like the old engines. In the 60s and 70s there were two different size blocks that became known as Big block and Small block Chevy engines. You don't have 2 block sizes today. The ZL1 (RPO) and the CanAm (race engine) were two different aluminum big blocks. Road racing Corvettes and Super Stock drag cars used the ZL1 block because the CanAm block was not legal. Top CanAm race cars and Pro Stock used the stronger CanAm race block. The CR5 is a race version of the LS1/LS6 RPO Corvette engine. It is more like a small block but since there is no modern big block there is no need to refer to it as a small block. The 427 CR5 is a great engine but it is not a modern day ZL1 or CanAm big block engine. In my opinion it is a completely different animal.

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Charley, do not be too hard on your self. Heck, I was worse then you in your ZL-1, and I am the one who advocates racing these cars. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] I am glad I did not have to race Mark, as he may have done worse then "spank" me. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

"The 427 CR5 is a great engine but it is not a modern day ZL1 or CanAm big block engine." Lemme see. It Won Lemans and is a all Aluminum 427 that makes 600 hp. And was designed for racing just as the Can Am was. How much closer can you get ?

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

JoeC,
Yes, you are correct regarding the big block vs the smaller version and yes, todays blocks are the same size. As you know, there is a BIG difference between the 427 C5R race cases and a standard LS1. GM sells the Race Case and the internals are not for sale through GM. They are all custom ordered. I like referring to these motors as a modern day big block, and I'm sorry if I confused people here. You are very accurate in your knowledge. Today the C5R race motors are different as well to the street versions, but the race case (bare block) is the same. Was the CanAM race motor the same block as the ZL1 Camaro Motor? and/or was it machined differently? Were the CanAM motors the first 427 motors Chevy built then they made a street (ZL1) version for the '69 Camaros and Corvettes?

I always like comparing the old with today, and the similarities are there but they are very different animals like you said . . .BUT, I still have to believe that these C5R race cases are the modern version of what Chevy is racing with and the ZL1 motor was the choice then and the C5R motors are the choice today. Were the CanAM ZL1 motors used in the 24 hour races at Le Mans and Daytona in 1969 ?? and were there production Corvettes running the ZL1 (RPO) version in Le Mans or the Daytona 24 in 1969 and 1970 ?? If so, that is why I refer to them, as the modern day ZL1 motor. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Great discussion, I have always preferred the small block, and always hoped it would win out in the end. It looks like this new C5R engine will become chevrolet lore in the future. This sounds like another small block engine built in the '60's for limited production, the Z28. Today's 302 TransAm counterpart is a 700hp motor, however, based on earlier technology.

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

***This is from memory without my notes so may not be 100%****
The ZL1 and the CanAm BB Chevy have as much resemblance to the C5R engine as the Toyota race engine that won LeMans. The LS1/LS6 C5R engine is a complete new generation of engines - nothing like a BB Chevy. If you must compare it to an old engine program, the C5R engine is more of a decedent of the 1963 Grand Sport Corvette program that got canceled. The GS Corvette had a 377 aluminum small block race engine designed from the 1963 327 RPO Corvette engine. Zora and his boys had high hopes to win LeMans, Daytona, and Sebring but Chevy gave the ax to the GS. The C5R won the race that many Corvettes fans wanted to win for many years so the C5R already has its own place in history.
The CanAm engines were designed by Chevy engineering to help Jim Hall Chaparrals win CanAm races and to show off Chevy engineering expertise. I have seen 4 different CanAm blocks and there are probably more. They came out about 1966 as BB Chevys cast in alu, then progressed to special castings with Siamese cyl/cast iron liners, then "Reynolds" blocks with no liners. The stock block in aluminum was not strong enough for CanAm but by 1968 the CanAm block engine was working good and Chevy sold the block as an HD service item later passed on to Don Yenko. Other teams such as McLaren were very successful with this killer BB Chevy engine beating the best in the world.
The ZL1 engine was released as RPO for Corvettes as an alu block L88 engine. This made it legal for SCCA competition who did not require car production minimums. It was not a special order race block like the C5R. Fred Gibb did COPO 9560 to get the RPO ZL1 Corvette engine in 50 Camaros so he (and Chevy) can have some fun in Super Stock drag racing. The "ZL1" Camaro was made for one reason which was to make it a legal Super Stock class drag car. Bill Grumpy Jenkins put a 430 cu in CanAm engine in a 68 Camaro and won the first ever Pro Stock race in 1970. Beating the Hemi with the BB Chevy was a really big deal back then to Chevy fans although the Sox & Martin Hemi won the 70 Pro Stock title. Getting back to the subject of this post, I like the 2002 Camaros but I don't see where the 2002 ZL1 Camaro got its right to use the ZL1 name and I hope the 2002 Motion Camaro does not disrespect the old Motion Camaros. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

The Early ZL1-Is like being the Babe Ruth of engines,and along comes the new kid on the block -modern/ZL1*-- Roger Marris of engines--both reached a certain goal, but the ZL1 WILL always have the status of being one of the greatest engines designed/produced, and that can never be over-shadowed, however I have nothing but admiration for the designers to be able to achieve over 600 hp and still get 22-24 mpg & AC. In my backyard mechanic opinion there will never be another ZL1 ,even if just for it's legacy, but with Berger,Murphy & Rosen I can see no better team to built the 2002 Motion Camaro and try to carry on the legacy of Motion & the ZL1 with the modern ZL1* [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]
THE ONLY THING-- I'm having a hard time picturing someone blasting down the track in 10sec.or less with the AC on---I always thought sweat was part of the deal whether it was 1969 or 2002. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Just turn the AC off then blast down the track with some sweat...may be worth a few tenths!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

I think the corvette started this, but isn't there a switch which turns the compressor off when you are at WOT?

Paul T

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Just to finished my rant.
Another reason the LS1/LS6 CR5 engine is no big block Chevy.
BB Chevy engines from the first 1963 427 Mystery engine have the famous porcupine semi Hemi heads with slanted valve design. The LS1/LS6 CR5 engine has the valves inline more like the SB Chevy design. In my opinion, the LS1/LS6 CR5 engine as not a SB Chevy or a BB Chevy because it is a complete new design.

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

If I'm not mistaken the new .090 C5R heads are canted valves and I'm sure they require Jesel valve train and a different intake. That's what is taking so long to get my C5R motor built. And as I posted earlier, who needs a/c?

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

JoeC

I think you are missing my point here on the comparison of an original ZL1 motor and the new C5R (not CR5) motor. You are correct in that it is completely different when comparing it to a big block (or even a small block). I wasn't meaning that they are similar in the design or components, that is obvious, and to those not familiar with the new GM 427 Race Case, I see your point, and my mistake for not mentioning that [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img].

The original ZL1 motors and cars have a place in Chevrolet, Camaro, Drag Racing, and Corvette History that will never be touched or directly compared to because that style of motor and time in history is done and over with and nothing like it at the time or after it, ever touched it. Now that we are into the new design for GM racing motors and a new era, this new 427 certainly carries on the tradition of those ZL1 motors in cubic inches, aluminum material, factory racing heritage, bore and stroke, and probably a few more things in common, like serious horse power . . . Just ask the Viper guys and the Saleens [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img].

I would love to see Chevrolet do an emission legal version of the C5R 427 motor and put it into the Corvette and call it a ZL1, and build two of them, well OK, maybe a small production run. For the record, we will not be doing a ZL1 Corvette, but it would be cool if Chevy did. I know some people didn't like the name ZL1 on our pilot car we built for Chevrolet, or the 69 production cars we built, but they do the original cars proud and they have brought back a lot of attention to those legendary people we know so well. I want to give them the credit they deserve on a larger scale, so the new generation can be educated on some of the muscle car legends from Chevy's past [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img].

I got a call today from a magazine called, "In The News." and they heard about these cars and are very interested in doing a story on Fred Gibb and the original ZL1's. I would never had used ZL1 if Chevrolet, myself and a few '69 ZL1 owners didn't think the new car was worthy of it. Two years ago, we all talked about the name when we made the pilot vehicle for Chevrolet and ZL1 was agreed to by 90% of us, and one or two said not to use it and leave it alone, call it a ZL2 or something else. I hate leaving history alone especially if it can do what it has done in this case.

I hope you and all can make it to the Fred Gibb Memorial Car show the weekend of Aug. 2nd. You and others are going to see what these cars have done for the name Fred Gibb and ZL1 and it makes me proud to be involved in that. By the way, Helen Gibb just had a birthday yesterday. Email her if anyone here can get the chance. She would love to hear from you. [email protected]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Are you saying that the 2002 Camaro ZL1 with the 2002 Z06 Corvette LS1/LS6 350 cu in alu engine is a small block ZL1 and the 2002 Camaro ZL1 with the C5R race case 427 cu in engine is a big block ZL1 even though it is the same size engine outside dimensions? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

As I said above, you are causing a lot of confusion by mis using the old engine names. I guess you can call the car a ZL1 Camaro but you can't call the engine a big block ZL1. Chevy is still using the ZL1 name for the new ZL1 based on the old real BB Chevy ZL1 engine. I have listed below two ads from the Jim Pace Chevrolet web site.


Now imagine opening a carbon L88 style hood on a 2002 Motion Camaro and having those big badd Ram Jet ZL1 valve covers pop out at you. Kinda makes the C5R engine look like a rice burner. That is why the C5R is no big block Chevy. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

http://www.paceparts.com/images/prod...0Ram%20Jet.jpg

<font color="blue"> Chevy Ram Jet ZL1: part no. 88961499 price $21,454.00
Getting a hold of one of these may be more difficult than hitting your state lottery. GM Performance Parts is proud to bring back a legend, if only for a limited time. The Ram Jet ZL1 is the í69 ZL1 of the new millennium, with its revised aluminum block, a solid roller cam, large oval port aluminum cylinder heads, and the Ram Jet fuel injection system. That's right...Fuel Injection. The Ram Jet ZL1 is 454 cid with a street friendly 10.2:1 compression ratio that will idle all day long, unlike its predecessor of 1969. If you want a Ram Jet ZL1 get in line now, GM Performance Parts will be producing a very limited 200 of these all-aluminum Rat Motors for sale on the open market

ZL1 Alu Big Block part no. 12370850 price $5,115.45
The Chevrolet aluminum big-block is back and better than ever. This block was first introduced in the 1969 Corvette and Camaro. It was one of the rarest production engines ever built. Now the improved version is available. This block is based on the original tooling. The new casting is made from 356-T6M aluminum alloy and has a 4.250" cast iron liner that can be bored to 4.300". The bottom end has also been improved with new 4-bolt splayed steel main caps, with dowel pins to locate and hold the caps in place. This block includes screw-in freeze plugs with o-ring seals, and a two-piece rear main oil seal. the new block has a provision for both dry sump or regular oil pump systems and mechanical fuel pump. All GM Performance Parts cylinder heads will fit this block and it weighs only 110 lbs. The maximum stroke is 4.375".
</font>

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

"Kinda makes the C5R race engine look like a rice burner."

What?!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
RAM JET ZL1 Technical Information

Horsepower 510 @ 5750 RPM
Torque 493 @ 4250 RPM
Max. Recommended RPM 6300
Compression Ratio 10.2:1
Cylinder Case 12370850 Aluminum
Main Bearings 12329723
Crankshaft 3963523
Connecting Rod 10198922 4340 Steel
Bearing Rod 12329715
Piston 88961461 Forged
Ring - Piston 12498734
Camshaft 88961447
Gross Valve Lift .640" int-.598" exh
Duration @ .50 Lift 236 int-232 exh
Centre Line 110 ATDC int-109 BTDC exh
Lifter 88961452
Timing Chain Kit 12371053
Flywheel 14001992
Oil Pan 14103141
Gasket-Oil Pan 10159519
Pump Oil 3969870
Front Cover 330850
Balancer 10216339
Cylinder Head Assembly 12363399 No valves
Cylinder Head Stud Kit 25534347
Intake Valve 12366987 2.25"
Exhaust Valve 12366988 1.88"
Valve Spring 88961454
Rocker Arm 121361323 Roller design
Gasket-Cylinder Head 12363414
Bolt/Stud 88961448
Push Rod Intake 88961450
Push Rod Exhaust 88961451
Manifold- Intake SEE 502 RAM JET
Cover-Valve R.H. NOT SERVICED
Cover-Valve L.H. NOT SERVICED
Water Pump. 14058915
Distributor 1104060
Valve Lash INT .016-EXH .018
Spark Plug R43XLS P/N 25164642
Fuel Prem. 93
Ignition Timing Base 10 degree

http://www.gmcanada.com/english/main...t_12497323.jpg

454 ZL1

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

JoeC...So you would rather see a 510 hp 454 in the car than a 600 hp 427 ? Even though you would have to cut the firewall and shoehorn it in ? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
My Personal Opinion on the Ramjet is I hate the looks of the intake.
And why aren't you scolding Chevy for calling a 454 a ZL1 ?

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Matt, the Clary's would like one of those "rice burners" if you have any extras laying around. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Charley, I hate the looks of the intake as well. And, what kind of hood scoop would it take to cover that beast? I don't think Joel even went that big/wild. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Seems to me the 427 C5R is a big cubic inch small block. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

" Matt, the Clary's would like one of those "rice burners" if you have any extras laying around. "

The Davis' will take one too. I don't usually like rice, but in this case I'll make an exception. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Hmmmm!! 600HP bowl of AMERICAN rice---sounds pretty good.-- [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]---- [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

i'll have mine in a 427 bowl of rice , please! if the 454 ZL1 were so hot and they were only going to build 200 of theses and serial number each one, and you would be lucky to get one, then, why does everybody still have them and are discounting them, for a mere $5000 more you can have a GMMG built 427 that will kill the 454 ZL whatever, a marketing mistake i think, just my opinion.

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

It's all about keeping the flavor of the old designs that make the new designs possible-- I'm an old MOTION dieheart--but I for one am REALLY glad that Joel has to decided to dust off his tools and help bring the memories of his legends of yesterday into todays automotive sport with modern design and a modern powerplant.----OH YEA MATT--- I still like sidepipes----JoeG [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]---- [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Here is a picture of a new "ZL1" Camaro engine. It is a good engine and it makes good HP but it doesn't look like it should be in a Motion Supercar. Can you get a nice set of valve covers or something for these engines?

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

JoeC,
I think, at least I hope, the Motion project team will do a little something to make the appearance of the engine special---off the top of my head , I think[IMO] replacing the black square plastic intake cover with a finned cast-aluminum cover with an old style Motion emblem on it would make me smile [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]--It would remind me of the old PhaseIII valve covers------Just a thought--JoeG [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Not easy to have a beautiful engine in these 2002 Camaro.
compared with the first generation Camaro. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

there is difficulty has to see the engine. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

too many parts useless below the hood. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Good for the 600 HP but for the look,one saw better.

Just my opinion. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Relocate the coils and add appropriate valve covers.

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Hello All, Sorry to get away from the engine topic, but what was Joel's relationship with Berger back in the 60's and the 70's. On a business and personal level. Even though they were in different parts of the country they were still competing for the same customers. Did this have any effect on forming a relationship today.

Steve

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Not at all !! We put this team together looking at the future and what the bproject can do for the collector out there.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]